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[Aichuk]

One of the greatest parts of DF is that unlike many other open-ended games, it actually generates a history along the way. But other than new characters, buildings, items and events, I realized it doesn't do much. But wouldn't it be awesome if people could 'invent' objects? Like sciencedwarves who spend their time researching-n-developing new stuff. Kind of like making an artifact except being useful against being just expensive, decorated items. Imagine making,  random stuff like, umm, canning machines which can can meat or a new way of making weapons which make them even more powerful. And perhaps not all inventions will be made at the same time, perhaps, some worlds even don't have particular random inventions. I'm already imagining making labs with lot of books and workshops with sciencedwarves researching. And by the time Toady includes alchemy, maybe, even random potions? And after something has been invented, it might become famous (always available) or perhaps your sciencedwarves have to read books to find out about inventions.
Also, perhaps some certain random material are unknown, and once you discover it your sciencedwarves have to test it and figure out what it does, and will give you a list of what it does and will give it a name. Of course, it's only certain stuff, imagine if you had to find out what is siltstone XD? It may have already been discovered or worlds may exist where the substance hasn't yet been discovered.
Ok, and if these are ignored, at least unique spells discovered. Or heck, even unique food recipes which might become famous and be made by dwarves a thousand years later.
Anyways, even if these are taken into consideration, it will be quite long until they are implemented
Of course, it's just my ideas and if they suck, I'm sorry. How do u feel about these? I believe it may make each world even more unique even if only some of the ideas are implemented

[GiglameshDespair]

Uniq

[Aichuk]

uniq

What?

[dwarfhoplite]

DF is medieval game and eventually you would run out of things to discover if you stay inside the time frame. That doesn't go well with the open ended nature of the game.

[AutomataKittay]

DF is medieval game and eventually you would run out of things to discover if you stay inside the time frame. That doesn't go well with the open ended nature of the game.

Maybe there could be 'fineness' level of discovery, from what wouldn't be out of place in caves few dozen thousand years ago to something impossible now.

On topic. While interesting, I don't see it happening for a long time, process of inventing and spread of technology is surprisingly complicated. It have to be interesting or profitible enough for people to want it. And there're how it would exist, most of the inventions are progressive improvement of previous technology, a way to bypass patents, or completely accidental ( like gunpowder and teflon for latter cases ). Then there're material limitation and avaliablity which drove adoption of iron sword because bronze, while superior at the time, was getting too hard to get.

Sometimes old technology just simply sticks around because new technology either aren't good enough to replace it in some application, or because there're not enough infrastructure for something more modern.

As for, things not being discovered for long time, that's not really a problem, technological stagnation happens pretty often historically, and I expect it to happen again within next century since there're only so much room in the bottom to work with. I mean, it'd not be -that- different from current DF, either.

As for fortress inventing things, you'd have to put in a lot of resource to educate them, a lot of free time for them to figure things out, and more resource for whatever they want. If DF had inventing system similar to artifact, I'd expect them to most likely be so rare, or mostly 'minor' inventions that's already been made before but dismissed as uninteresting/useless/uneconomical. Or it could be improved design of current screw pump that need no energy to drive using an fire imp

[ikachan]

I think it is an interesting idea to have random inventions, We could have it that technology evolves depending on how old the world is and eventually we get industrial revolutions as we get more technology and your dwarves find uses for things such as saltpetre for gunpowder (currently saltpetre exists but has little purpose). As things change we could introduce many new government forms such as a theocracy and when we get wiser we then move onto democracy, communism and lots of other things.
As well as evolving technology and knowledge we could have evolution, Were some dwarves are born with varying genetic mutations and that mutation will either be beneficial or consequential.

Sorry I got a little off topic there, but I think that new technology and inventions would be an interesting addition to the game.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Evolution takes millions of years to get much of anywhere, except with bacteria and such. A bit off-topic, but when people screw up evolutionary theory...it bugs me.

Anyways, I had thought of a possible solution to one problem with the suggestion over lunch. Inventions are, uh, invented, but the tech races start with varies on the length of worldgen. If you're genning a 5-year world, they'll be near the tech they're" supposed" to have at the end, but if you're making a 1050-year fortress, the dwarves will start around the tech humanity had around 200-400 AD. Stuff like that.


Oh, and before I forget: Planned.

[GiglameshDespair]

uniq

What?

What indeed. I haven't even been in this thread before. I really don't know what has happened here.

[assasin]

I don't think it should be strictly linear. For example if a lot of things die because of a famine or plague it might mean that certain technologies are lost. The more advanced the technology the more often it happens, adding a soft cap to the game. It should be as subtle as possible.  this is a bit of a generalisation so I hope people don't misunderstand my point.

 maybe different areas could have different levels like south america had limited access to metal tools while europe had gunpowder.and strict tenology x = tech y is historically inaccurate. the egyptians built the pyramids without much advanced tech [unless you believe the alien theory]. so there could be a lot of variation to make the difference look more smooth,

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't think it should be strictly linear. For example if a lot of things die because of a famine or plague it might mean that certain technologies are lost. The more advanced the technology the more often it happens, adding a soft cap to the game. It should be as subtle as possible.  this is a bit of a generalisation so I hope people don't misunderstand my point.

I understand. However, it wouldn't solve all of the problems. Either shorter histories mean dwarves with copper and gold at their upper end, or longer histories often end with guns or steam engines. Or Toady artificially limits development, but that doesn't seem to be his style.

maybe different areas could have different levels like south america had limited access to metal tools while europe had gunpowder.and strict tenology x = tech y is historically inaccurate. the egyptians built the pyramids without much advanced tech [unless you believe the alien theory]. so there could be a lot of variation to make the difference look more smooth,

Well, I'm not sure how your examples matter to your point, but the idea is both valid and I-thought-it-was-obvious.

[Revanchist]

This idea has the ability to make even more !!FUN!!. Who doesn't support !!FUN!!, except the elves?

[Damiac]

Evolution takes millions of years to get much of anywhere, except with bacteria and such. A bit off-topic, but when people screw up evolutionary theory...it bugs me.

Newer theories on evolution state that it happens in leaps and bounds, typically due to cataclysmic events, or mass migrations.  E.G. a small population of an existing species has a mutation where it can digest some fungus, which the rest of the population cannot.  Then a disaster occurs, killing most of the species food source, except that fungus.  So, the only surviving members of the species are the ones who can digest that fungus.  Their offspring are likely to have that same mutation, and of course, those who don't have it will die.  In a couple generations, that population is comprised only of the members with that mutation.

The older theories on evolution being slow seemed to rely on some magical genetic knowledge of what is "better". Evolution is a product of random mutation, coupled with some reason why that mutation is seperated, either by death, or migration.  At that point you have a new species.

[10ebbor10]

Evolution takes millions of years to get much of anywhere, except with bacteria and such. A bit off-topic, but when people screw up evolutionary theory...it bugs me.

Newer theories on evolution state that it happens in leaps and bounds, typically due to cataclysmic events, or mass migrations.  E.G. a small population of an existing species has a mutation where it can digest some fungus, which the rest of the population cannot.  Then a disaster occurs, killing most of the species food source, except that fungus.  So, the only surviving members of the species are the ones who can digest that fungus.  Their offspring are likely to have that same mutation, and of course, those who don't have it will die.  In a couple generations, that population is comprised only of the members with that mutation.

The older theories on evolution being slow seemed to rely on some magical genetic knowledge of what is "better". Evolution is a product of random mutation, coupled with some reason why that mutation is seperated, either by death, or migration.  At that point you have a new species.

Slow evolution can still happen though through gradual specialization, which can cause a species to split in 2. Or when they are divided by geological barriers.

Actually, the definition of a new species is when the offspring of the animals of the 2 would be species is not capable of in species reproduction. Hence why dogs are the same species, despite different looks, and donkey's/horses are not.

[5asdffdsa5]

Still despite that, due purely to the number of dwarfs in worldgen and the small time scale, it would be very rare to play in a world where evolution was visible.

[AutomataKittay]

Still despite that, due purely to the number of dwarfs in worldgen and the small time scale, it would be very rare to play in a world where evolution was visible.

I wouldn't say it'd be rare, domensticating animals or selective breeding could change things in term of decades or centuries, depending on creatures. Environmental changes can drive it a lot through selective pressure, though it's more likely to lead to extinction.

And that's not considering microorganisms that's got it's generations in hours or less

While those aren't really good example of long-term evolution, it's still similar pressures and changes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
This is pretty notable, at least to me, for half century of breeding something wild into tame.

On other hand, you could come up with very different strains of crops within decades with dedicated effort and enough of variety of related plants to work with, as I believe have been done with tomatoes and corn.