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[Mlamlah]

Pretty sure the information war will have escalated to levels that we today would have a hard time understanding. The internet will likely become an even more complex place, and/or be regulated by governments and/or corporations around the world.

[Loud Whispers]

We give china the middle finger and tell them to work off their own debt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt#Foreign_holdings

Yeah about "their" debts...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In treasury bonds the USA owes:
$140,090,000,000 to the United Kingdom
$150,000,000,000 to Russia
$196,100,000,000 to Taiwan
$253,000,000,000 to Brazil
$1,117,100,000,000 to Japan
$1,469,000,000,000 to China

Pretty sure the information war will have escalated to levels that we today would have a hard time understanding. The internet will likely become an even more complex place, and/or be regulated by governments and/or corporations around the world.

There is only one logical response to a future like this.


Buuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrn.

[misko27]

I agree with the first two, but America is 100% dependent right now on China for financing so "their own debt" is a non-existent thing.

That really sound like biting that hand that feeds you, America would have economically collapsed already if it wasn't for Chinese financing. China has a choice of where to invest it's money, America has limited resource to finance of the scale China is providing.

To be honest that really sound like being a bunch of little shitheads, accepting someones money, then saying "fuck you assholes, we owe you nothing".

Please be reminded, the chinese see it as a investment. If they wanted to, they could call it all in, but that would absolutely pbliterate their economy, and the world economy. Hell, we're dependant on their trades, they are dependant on us, one falls, they all fall. Our economy is actually doing worse then it should because groth in China is slowing. It's not like regular debt, whihc you call in and has no effect. The world collapses.

Moreover, the US Interest rates for debt are so low, they don't even keep up with inflation. They are now paying us money to get our shit together. I mean, come on.

Besides, the are simply the largest of foreign holdings. I mean what is that? Nothing. Most US debt is in Private hands, only 47% TOTAL is Foreign and China is the largest of that TOTAL. that's not much, comparitvely speaking.

[Loud Whispers]

Please be reminded, the chinese see it as a investment. If they wanted to, they could call it all in, but that would absolutely pbliterate their economy, and the world economy. Hell, we're dependant on their trades, they are dependant on us, one falls, they all fall.

It's more complicated than that. But in any case where China would call in the debts, change their currency or whatever - America is looking to be on the downer, downer side. Zimbabwe dollars bad.

[Shadowlord]

P.S. Reelya: Some of the countries in Europe, post WWI, did not repay their debts to the USA, as I recall. Yeah.

Loud Whispers: Only if they couldn't borrow the money from another nation.

Anywho, to answer the OP:

Over the years leading up to 2060, climate change has been accelerating, along with severe weather events, droughts, and so forth. War, famine, and civil war have all been rising over the previous decades.

In 2026, US President [REDACTED] announces the launch a solar shade. He declares that this will alleviate the heating from global warming.

By 2028, the planet is dramatically cooler thanks to the solar shade, but also considerably darker. The mass droughts which have been plaguing much of the world for the past two decades were continuing, and the decrease in sunlight exacerbates the situation, further cutting crop growth rates, with the heat decrease also contributing.

In 2033, becoming somewhat panicked about the dwindling arable farmland and water sources, US President [REDACTED BUT DIFFERENT] attempted an invasion of Canada, after most of Europe essentially self-destructed. The occupation was successful, temporarily, until the Brits launched a sort of stealth nuke which was undetected by the US's anti-missile defenses, and which exploded in the upper atmosphere above the US, setting off an EMP which knocked out the entire US infrastructure and advanced military, drone fleet, and electronic firing guns (which had largely replaced firing pin weapons in the US military, but not among private citizens or the Canadian military). The Canadians then pulled their actual military tanks and equipment and so forth out of hidden faraday-caged bunkers to wipe out the US military in their country. (They also had earlier mandated that all factories be shielded from EMP, preventing them from being knocked out, etc)


In 2034, the solar shade is de-activated by a robotic spacecraft belonging to a private space corporation (the only one remaining after the space corp mergers in 2016-2017, which coincided with the beginning of the 2016-2019 global nation-state default crisis and financial collapse (which is to say that it started with Japan defaulting and restructuring its debt in January, followed by a domino effect of 16 full or partial defaults of nations over the next few months, then resulting in Rand Paul's election as President of the USA (despite that the US had not defaulted)).

After trying to re-invade Canada and failing again, the US essentially collapsed and a civil war over the remains of the country broke out, and eventually petered out inconclusively. The United States, as of 2040, is a lawless wasteland where one is likely to be shot by steampunk defense bots for wandering into the few farms that remain, or near water or oil/gas/oil shale/oil sands 'wells'. There isn't much arable land left, and people start dying off fairly quickly as a result of the US's massive size and total lack of any way of restoring its capabilities (or allies, at this point - it has alienated everyone).

Elsewhere... By 2050, Africa has been united as a result of constant warfare since 2029, but still has only a small amount of arable land and water. (In 2045, there were only three empires remaining in Africa)

Russia broke out into a 10 year civil war after Vladimir Putin's (yes, that wasn't redacted) death in 2041 at the age of 81. China invaded Russia in 2051, and by 2055, had conquered Siberia and Eastern Russia (planning for the changing climate, Siberia may eventually be ideal territory) and installed a puppet leader in the rest of Russia.

The Middle Eastern Alliance is formed in 2055, as the countries in the region, including Pakistan and India, agree to look past their differences (a massive step for Israel, Palestine, and Iran) and ally to work together in the changing world to preserve and protect each other and ensure the survival of all members to the greatest extent possible. Politics has been almost completely rewritten across much of the world over the past few decades as a result of the clear existential danger that the climate crisis posed to all humankind. (Although much of humanity devolved into warfare, some did rise above. Paradoxically, it was those who were least expected to.)

In 2060, orbital solar power is provided as a pilot program to all the countries in the middle east, who are suffering considerably from climate change and being forced to acquire water by drilling (with estimates that they will run out within a few years). This effectively free, carbon neutral, power source (rapidly increasing in power gathered and transmitted as time passes) provides a means for desalination and removal of carbon from ocean water, allowing the construction of new desalination plants on the coast, which begin to provide water to the entire middle east. Attempts are made to sequester the resulting carbon, with moderate success.
For comparison, China is getting most of its power from nuclear plants, Russia from burning various fossil fuels without bothering to deal with the GHG emissions, and Canada with earth-based clean energy and natural gas.

I omitted Europe (among other things). Haven't decided quite what should happen to them. Perhaps some kind of animal-based contagion which can infect humans but is only infectious from that specific (mainland, one hopes) europe-based animal species to humans and not from human to human, limiting its spread to europe. I'd need to find an animal which would be appropriately range-restricted to Europe (and probably not Russia or Britain) in the years in question (2020-2030), and I am definitely unfamiliar with what wildlife is in Europe and what ranges it has.

[Kilroy the Grand]

If we say "fuck you china" There is very little they could do, it's not like they could force us to pay them back. Besides, their own econemy is build on a massive real-estate bubble to build up their GDP. They have entire empty cities just rotting away.

[misko27]

Please be reminded, the chinese see it as a investment. If they wanted to, they could call it all in, but that would absolutely pbliterate their economy, and the world economy. Hell, we're dependant on their trades, they are dependant on us, one falls, they all fall.

It's more complicated than that. But in any case where China would call in the debts, change their currency or whatever - America is looking to be on the downer, downer side. Zimbabwe dollars bad.

That is limited. Would you fuck over yourself to fuck over everyone? The Economies of the World's 2 largest nations are inextricably inter-twined. Besides, Japan is two tenths of a percent behind China in holding US debt. the THIRD largest economy, I might add. Why are we not scared of them?

The Middle Eastern Alliance is formed in 2055, as the countries in the region, including Pakistan and India, agree to look past their differences (a massive step for Israel, Palestine, and Iran) and ally to work together in the changing world to preserve and protect each other and ensure the survival of all members to the greatest extent possible. Politics has been almost completely rewritten across much of the world over the past few decades as a result of the clear existential danger that the climate crisis posed to all humankind. (Although much of humanity devolved into warfare, some did rise above. Paradoxically, it was those who were least expected to.)

You are hilarious.Middle-eastern alliance, you funny. As someone from a nation with various warrring ethnicities and nationalities, I can tell you 1 thing. Ain't gonna happen. It's more likely the british will nuke the united states for no reason (which you also have in there).

If we say "fuck you china" There is very little they could do, it's not like they could force us to pay them back. Besides, their own econemy is build on a massive real-estate bubble to build up their GDP. They have entire empty cities just rotting away.

Well lets not go that far. There are complex issues at stake, and we can't afford to alienate anyone.

[Loud Whispers]

If we say "fuck you china" There is very little they could do, it's not like they could force us to pay them back. Besides, their own econemy is build on a massive real-estate bubble to build up their GDP. They have entire empty cities just rotting away.

Besides massively devaluing the US dollar? Saying fuck you to a major world power is a good step in the direction of "watch the world burn."

It's more likely the british will nuke the united states for no reason (which you also have in there).

"And today dear Overlord Prime Minster of the glorious United Kingdom and its sovereign nations his holiness Boris Johnson, baron and mayor of London has declared that as of next monday, 4000 of the myriad secret trident submarines are on their way to utterly annihilate the United States of America with nuclear weapons, and from the rubble, construct one massive series of interconnected Boris bikes."

[Kilroy the Grand]

If we say "fuck you china" There is very little they could do, it's not like they could force us to pay them back. Besides, their own econemy is build on a massive real-estate bubble to build up their GDP. They have entire empty cities just rotting away.

Besides massively devaluing the US dollar? Saying fuck you to a major world power is a good step in the direction of "watch the world burn."

I never said it was a smart option.

[misko27]

It's more likely the british will nuke the united states for no reason (which you also have in there).

"And today dear Overlord Prime Minster of the glorious United Kingdom and its sovereign nations his holiness Boris Johnson, baron and mayor of London has declared that as of next monday, 4000 of the myriad secret trident submarines are on their way to utterly annihilate the United States of America with nuclear weapons, and from the rubble, construct one massive series of interconnected Boris bikes."
[/quote]
The United states kinda has enough nuclear subamerine sthat if the US dies, everyone goes. and the Anti-Balistic Missile system, can't forget about that.

[rutsber]

I omitted Europe (among other things). Haven't decided quite what should happen to them. Perhaps some kind of animal-based contagion which can infect humans but is only infectious from that specific (mainland, one hopes) europe-based animal species to humans and not from human to human, limiting its spread to europe. I'd need to find an animal which would be appropriately range-restricted to Europe (and probably not Russia or Britain) in the years in question (2020-2030), and I am definitely unfamiliar with what wildlife is in Europe and what ranges it has.

You could do something about a genetically modified animal. Then you don't have to worry what it is, as long as you say it was only ever bred in Europe.

[Shadowlord]

The Middle Eastern Alliance is formed in 2055, as the countries in the region, including Pakistan and India, agree to look past their differences (a massive step for Israel, Palestine, and Iran) and ally to work together in the changing world to preserve and protect each other and ensure the survival of all members to the greatest extent possible. Politics has been almost completely rewritten across much of the world over the past few decades as a result of the clear existential danger that the climate crisis posed to all humankind. (Although much of humanity devolved into warfare, some did rise above. Paradoxically, it was those who were least expected to.)

You are hilarious.Middle-eastern alliance, you funny. As someone from a nation with various warrring ethnicities and nationalities, I can tell you 1 thing. Ain't gonna happen. It's more likely the british will nuke the united states for no reason (which you also have in there).

There are pressures besides just the ones you can see see today. I mentioned climate change (which there is essentially no sufficiently impactful governmental action on today). Others are the declining reserves of fresh water (which have been warned about in the past, it has been projected that we are going to deplete our underground reservoirs, for example, and we are polluting our lakes, etc), which are only going to disappear faster as the population rises faster and the planet warms up and drought increases (though some areas may get increased rainfall at times, generally in the form of extreme storms unless the region gains increased rainfall in general; some will), and decreasing arable land. The choice is between, essentially, cooperation, or mutual destruction. The main reason the Middle East and India and Pakistan would cooperate rather than essentially doom each other is that they have seen what happened to the other nations which chose war; they became failed states or post-apocalyptic semi-states (Africa, the USA, etc).

The US, if you remember history, invaded Canada once before, and were routed by the British. Times have changed since then, but at the time I posited that occuring, changing political leadership, attitudes, and the environment (if it was changing rapidly enough) would shape policy (possibly even enough to override what was previously hatred, even xenophobia or religious hatred - an existential threat can unite enemies, or it can drive allies to try to backstab each other, etc).

Britain doesn't nuke the US, either - it uses a nuke as an EMP (electromagnetic pulse) weapon to neutralize the US's superior military because the US has invaded Canada and England is in danger of (or certain of) being lost as a viable homeland in that timeline. (The nuke would get radiation into the atmosphere, but human civilization, and most other species on the planet, are already dying off, and it's fairly obvious nobody is doing anything about it besides dying (or is going to be able to do anything about it).

Yes, if the US's nuclear missile subs or missile silos aren't knocked out by the EMP, they could nuke Canada, or Australia, or whoever they wanted, assuming those nukes still existed and still worked (or had been replaced if not, which is probably likely). It is a possibility. Actually it might even be likely. Assuming that a submarine hull is actually metal enough to act as a faraday cage, they should be safe (unless the EMP interacts with an antenna on the sub or whatever and fries something that way, who knows), but they're probably the only thing unless every US ship had shielded electronics and wires and so forth. Irradiating Canada isn't in anyone's interest, however, as it's one of the few places that may be likely to be arable/habitable while most of the world is uninhabitable (another better one being Siberia, and another being in eastern China) - from what I recall of the IPCC projections. Australia, however, that might be a target, although I cannot think of any real reason other than spite to nuke it into oblivion. The US's subs could try to make an EMP but the one over America blasted Canada just as much as the US; Canada/the British Empire was just better prepared because the EMP was part of a plan for dealing with the possibility of a potential US invasion of Canada in the event hostilities ever broke out while the US was still the dominant military power.

I omitted Europe (among other things). Haven't decided quite what should happen to them. Perhaps some kind of animal-based contagion which can infect humans but is only infectious from that specific (mainland, one hopes) europe-based animal species to humans and not from human to human, limiting its spread to europe. I'd need to find an animal which would be appropriately range-restricted to Europe (and probably not Russia or Britain) in the years in question (2020-2030), and I am definitely unfamiliar with what wildlife is in Europe and what ranges it has.

You could do something about a genetically modified animal. Then you don't have to worry what it is, as long as you say it was only ever bred in Europe.

Ah, that's a good idea. It'd have to be something large enough to not sneak on ships or airplanes, but capable of swimming. I wonder if foxes could swim across the english channel...

[Kilroy the Grand]

Shadowlord, I can assure you that the US government has prepared for the usage of a nuclear bomb. I mean, have you SEEN some of the shit DARPA has prepared for? It's crazy, something as banal as nuclear weapons they probably laugh at.
http://www.darpa.mil/NewsEvents/Budget.aspx

seriously, check it out.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Fighting continued, blood was spilled, and many lived and died, just as they had in the old world. But the tale of humanity will never come to a close, for the fight for survival is a war without end, and war... war never changes.

[Hubris Incalculable]

Fighting continued, blood was spilled, and many lived and died, just as they had in the old world. But the tale of humanity will never come to a close, for the fight for survival is a war without end, and war... war never changes.