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[Scottzar]

... Are you really questioning me because i couldn't finish my post due to being tired and thus having to sleep?

No. As I can recall, I said "If you only had time for just that post, why not make it about a good case on, say, nerjin?". Remember the part where I said

Then tell us the utter bullshit. If you notice anything, you can start to pressure someone on it. Maybe not vote them, but ask, Pressure is how you make people slip and crack.

.
Also: you are posting now. Why? You could have spent the time scumhunting instead of defending from me, which I have told you to do. Obviously if you don't think that's the best use of your (limited) time to spend on mafia, you should tell us that and then spend time doing whatever it is you think is most useful.

also please, show the sentence where i admit that i find it more important to deal with your pressure than scumhunt. Cause i like it how you are putting words in my mouth, which i've never said.

It's the entire section where you defend from me instead of scumhunting.
"Sweet jesus, Scottzar.. i Don't think that you have red the last sentence at the bottom of the quoteblock."
Why can't I ask you questions about your post which you can address next time you can afford to? This is called pressure, its how people get scumslips and decide who to lynch.

Honestly, I'd be happy to wait until you have the time to properly explain your suspicions, which lets us all see what you are thinking about and clear the vast majority of our suspicion from you.

I'm just going to type in Green because cutting the post up would be pointless.

This represents what I mean well. He's made a very large and obvious mistake (not pressuring someone he FOS's), and reacted very calmly to being questioned about it, instead of immediately going to fix it.

Generally speaking, the calm reaction is the significantly better one. People who react in immediate response to pressure are regarded as scummy.

The general thinking is that people who have something to hide, i.e., scum, will react more strongly if they're confronted with it. Cf, the reaction of any child who knows he/she did something wrong, or anyone who's not a practiced liar.

On the other hand, people who have nothing to hide, i.e., town, will be significantly calmer.

This only applies if there's an actual response. A calm response is better then a reactionary one, but no response is not ideal at all.
The problem I had is that he basically says "You're right, I should put pressure on xny" then proceeds to pretend to do that. His question was "If you and Mr. Zero aren't scum buddies, why are you focusing on him in particular?", despite the fact that, AFAIK, xny wasn't really posting much at that point and hadn't apologised for it yet, which would have been a useful part of pressure.

Jim: you are playing very differently to how you did in, say, Wild West Mafia. You are much more... laconic. In particular, I would have expected you to pressure ShoesandHats when you changed your vote to him. There are a number of possible reasons for this, but I'd like to see why you personally are doing this.

That game was a year ago and now I'm busy as fuck.

I've called him lazy and his arguments scummy and terrible and voted him. There's not much more I can squeeze out of him unless he takes a sudden interest in responding to my accusations in a substantive manner.
Not much to say here, just asking because I was sort of familiar with your playstyle a year ago.

Why, in particular, no questions to either of the IC's? Shakerag hasn't been under significant pressure at all, as far as I know. You can't wait for him to slip himself, so why no actual questions?
Jim, also, has been acting if not suspiciously, rather strangely. I suppose meta-tells in a BM game aren't really that valid because of the playstyle change, but you can at least start to ask him about it.

I can appreciate your general attitude that pressuring everyone to some extent is a good thing.

If you can find significant issues to pressure everyone one on that consistently lead to strong gains in finding scum, then you're a better player than all of us.

I think as you get more experience, you'll find this is difficult to do.
I just disliked how in the past days of posts, neither IC was under much pressure. Out of the RVS, with no real scumtells dropped, neither IC was really being questioned. Which makes sense I suppose, D2 hasn't started yet, which I am largely responsible for. I guess I'm just impatient.

@Everyone other than Nabic and ShoesandHats: Why haven't you questioned me? Jim can say he hasn't gotten a post in after the replacement, but Mr.Zero and Shakerag, why haven't I gotten any pressure from you?

Fair warning, this might offend you, but I assume that when you replace in you're going to post.

And if there's anything I find that looks odd or scummy or out of the ordinary, I am going to question you about it.

However, if I don't see anything odd or scummy or out of the ordinary, I'm not going to question you, because there is nothing to question. I can't invent issues to attack you with for the sake of 'pressure.'
Of course I'm going to post, why would I be offended? I was just expecting questions about my suspicions and thoughts from the rest of the thread, which I suppose I've gotten. (and still need to answer some of).

Mr.Zero: you seem to be harassing people to supplement your pressure. Do you think the potentially added scumhunting, if any, is enough to counteract the hate and votes it earns you?

We don't play mafia to be nice to each other.

At the same time, we don't play mafia to be raging dicks to each other.

It doesn't really matter if he's winning a popularity contest or losing it to me, it would be suspicious of him to try.
It's just a question. He's using a fair amount of vitriol, and responding poorly to pressure. Getting him to think about what I am asking him, and, further, throw pressure on him until he starts to instinctively do something. In this case, that is defend himself, which is a scumtell.

Jim: you defended Mr.Zero's action of defending himself. I can see why you defend people in a BM, but his excessive amount of self defence appears to occur in lieu of scumhunting. If this trend continues, do you think he is the second most scummy?

Defending yourself to the complete exclusion of scumhunting is scummy, yes.

That said, my read on Mr.Zero is that of a beginner flailing around trying to get the hang of the game and panicking at having his head near the noose. I don't think he's scum for his reactions so far.
I was thinking about that, which is why my vote isn't on him. I'm mostly pressuring him to scumhunt, which may be counter-productive. When he writes a bigger post in his spare time, I suppose we will see.

[ShoesandHats]

Yes, I do. I simply agreed with him and wanted Jim to answer for it, which he didn't.

Bullshit.

You made your lazy attack in this post in response to Nerjin questioning why I tied the vote. I responded here.

Thanks for calling me out on that. I guess the first time I looked over that I didn't notice that part of the post, or at least didn't think it was referring to the tie.

Bad Shoes, read posts more carefully!

[Nerjin]

-snip-
Nerjin: Your posts since http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3726091#msg3726091 haven't been very substantial. Any reason for this?
Also, you appear to find Jim to be highly scummy, but don't vote him. Is this because you think Mr.Zero is innocent, or some other reason (i.e. scumbuddies) which you think protecting him is important, or is ShoesandHats genuinely too scummy to sacrifice a chance to lynch to put pressure on Jim?

Borno and Nerjin: similar to the above question: do you think ShoesandHats is scummy, or innocent?
-snip-

Shorten I think we've seen enough to all make a decision. First of all.

Why haven't my posts been more substantial? Probably because I've had little to say. That and college is starting to catch up to me. However I will admit that I should be posting more, with more. But nothing is sticking out to me. I feel like we're arguing the same point over and over right about now.

I didn't vote Jim because I don't think he's scum. I just found it odd that he voted into a tie and seemed very well aware of it. I figured he might be trying to tie it up on purpose. However he answered my question well enough that I no longer suspect him on anything more than swearing a bit more than usual.

Mr. Zero innocent? Do you read the votes? I've been voting him for quite a while. I think he's the scummiest player here shortly followed by Mr. Lazy argument [Shoesandhats] I'm willing to bet they're both Scum. Currently however I'm voting Mr. Zero because I think he's the more scummy of the two.

To answer your second question [again] I think Shoes is the second scum. Did you read the thread per-chance? Because you seem to be missing what I'm doing entirely.

[Shakerag]

PFP, may be too busy to post today.

[Nerjin]

What exactly does PFP mean? I keep seeing it.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Posting from Phone/Profession.

[Shakerag]

@Everyone other than Nabic and ShoesandHats: Why haven't you questioned me? Jim can say he hasn't gotten a post in after the replacement, but Mr.Zero and Shakerag, why haven't I gotten any pressure from you?

Mostly because I've been rather busy.  Also because I didn't find xny to be terribly scummy, so I haven't had a strong urge to follow up on his replacement. 

Shakerag: why no pressure on me? Why is Mr.Zero possibly town, and why am I? Shouldn't I be neutral because of how little chance to get a read you had?

Why are you asking me that twice before I've had a chance to respond?  Mr.Zero smells way more strongly of newbie to me than scum right now.  I'm reading him as newbie town responding to getting dogpiled on.  As for you, my townie impressions from xny are carrying over for now.  If you act like a raging scumbucket, then my read will correspondingly change. 

Why are you awfully concerned about me asking you questions and what my impression of you is?

Shakerag, Why are you still voting Captain Ford?

Again, busy.  I wanted to confirm my supicions on a re-read before I changed my vote, and haven't gotten to it yet.

Blugh.

[Pshaw.  Even without two replaces you know as well as I do D1 stretches forever.]

I just disliked how in the past days of posts, neither IC was under much pressure. Out of the RVS, with no real scumtells dropped, neither IC was really being questioned. Which makes sense I suppose, D2 hasn't started yet, which I am largely responsible for. I guess I'm just impatient.

[Generally, from my observations, it seems like ICs are either often avoided (whether due to lack of tells to go on, intimidated by a more experienced player, etc.) or relentlessly pursued by a "hotshit newbie".  I'm not terribly surprised by the lack of ICward questions.]

He's using a fair amount of vitriol [...]

[You haven't met Dariush yet, have you?]

Thanks for calling me out on that. I guess the first time I looked over that I didn't notice that part of the post, or at least didn't think it was referring to the tie.

Bad Shoes, read posts more carefully!

ShoesandHats:  Why are you thanking Jim for calling you out rather than acknowledging it as an oversight?  Do you think kissing his ass will make him less likely to continue to vote you? 

Shorten I think we've seen enough to all make a decision. First of all.

Bold.  It's rare to see anyone throw out a shorten anymore.  So, just to get this straight, you think Mr.Zero and ShoesandHats are the scumteam, yes?  Therefore you don't care which gets lynched, even if it isn't the one you're voting for?  Do you think there are interactions between the two that confirm this for you?


Unvoting for now.  I think it's funny how we went from ganging up on Mr.Zero to ShoesandHats, and I want to look into that a bit more. 

[Nerjin]

Shorten I think we've seen enough to all make a decision. First of all.

Bold.  It's rare to see anyone throw out a shorten anymore.  So, just to get this straight, you think Mr.Zero and ShoesandHats are the scumteam, yes?  Therefore you don't care which gets lynched, even if it isn't the one you're voting for?  Do you think there are interactions between the two that confirm this for you?

There are no interactions between the two that confirm this for me but they are relatively equal in suspicion for me. Mr. Zero for reasons I've stated time and time again and Shoes for his attempted buddying of me [it is buddying isn't it? Am I using the term wrong?] and his incredibly lazy reasoning on everything. As for direct contact between the two? I feel like Shoes may have been bussing but I cannot confirm this through any particular quote.

As for the first part, no I don't care which gets lynched since I'm certain they're both scum. I'd prefer it was my number 1 scum-suspect but I'll take the second if I have to. At this point I feel we've discussed everything we can with the information we've been given so I figure we should see if he flips scum or not. If so we have more evidence, if not we have more evidence. Maybe I've broken some sort of unwritten rule here but I think we've talked about all we can on day 1.

[Mr.Zero]

Massive answers incoming. I forgot the order of it, so it may seem off.

[Mr.Zero]

Vague and unhelpful? Who are you to decide that? I just poked you for your semi-lurk and you jumped, then i asked that question. You totally avoided that question, now it does seem like you have something to hide. If you wouldn't you'd answered the question and produced that statement with it.

Please explain the lack of answer, even though it should be a easy question.

The tone of this is very argumentative and generally unhelpful. If you want someone to answer your/a question, why don't you quote that question?

Why do you call Nabic out on not being able to decide the worth of a question? How does this help your argument? Jim talked to you about it, but you never explained your reasoning.

Because i believe that he automatically assumed that everyone was thinking what he thought at that moment, thus he disregarded it as useless for everyone. While let's say Shakerag ,Borno and i might think different about that.

This helped my argument slightly by seeing that he avoided the question completely, if he has nothing to fear he could've answered it. Even if it was a lie back then like "I was busy, sleeping, sickness, work, etc.", there was no way i would've noticed that he was lying. If he did at all. But now he avoided it, thus it raised my suspicion.
[
You didn't say why you didn't quote the question. That wasn't rhetoric.
Also, your answer is illogical and avoids my question: it didn't help your argument by seeing that he had avoided the question because he had already done that, then you slapped the pointless, insulting end on anyway. This is instead of, say, quoting the question you want him to answer.

Ehhh, it seems i've messed up the second quote in the small pyramid. The second quote is in post #204 of Scottzar , if anyone could be wondering where i got it from.

I didn't quote the question, cause as you've hopefully noticed. I Quite quickly quoted that block and added the orange text, to at least give some before i went on a long period of absence. Unfortunately this quote, did not contain the question.

Here's the question.

Ohoho, i only called you out on your semi-lurk that's all. Why are you getting so ehm... mad? about it?, do you have something to fear?

He did not answer this question, he avoided it. Period, then he proceeded doing the following. I think it's called this. Mind projection fallacy. ( If it means that he automatically assumed that same sentence for everyone in the thread E.G in this post)

Your question was vague and unhelpful to town. In mafia, asked questions necessitate answers. Spamming others with questions wastes everyone's time reading them.

He automatically dismissed this question for everyone, and became a hypcrite in the second sentence. (bolded) If i think that it means that questions require answers like the following, E.G
"Is the sky blue? -> Answer: yes" and not
"Is the sky blue? -> potato."

I do agree with your statement, but this question was not one of them. Look at shoesandhat's question which was directed at me in #180. Not only is this question vague, but it is also VERY unhelpful to town, especially at this day/stage.

[Mr.Zero]

borno, Currently, you're voting for Mr.Zero because of a "slip" and an OMGUS. You said to him:

I wouldn't vote for anyone without good reason (Unless if it was RVS), if that's what you're asking.

What "slip" or evidence against Mr.Zero makes you most suspicious?

His initial slip was saying that he'd make Jim Groovester lose his vote for the rest of the game, because he bullied newbies and

With that gone he would be less of a threat to town or scum depending on his alignment.

Town shouldn't really care if things would be made harder for scum, in fact they should even encourage it. However this wasn't really enough to warrant a vote, but when he got called out for it, he got defensive. Soon after, he started calling attention to the lurkers, and saying that it all was just a misunderstanding.

Wat.
1. The orange part first. The point where Shakerag asked an question to me, where i responded with this. Then xny asked me why jim in post #80 and then post #82. I've of course answered because i have red a little about Jim, and biased from that i could get a very rough sketch of his experience and how he could be good scum which could mislead town or a good town which could hunt down scum. Instead of picking a totally random player (This is really the first game that i've seen you guys, at RVS there was also very little to deduct from).I didn't have to worry about the latter though.

Later Nerjin told in post #86, that i was going to put my REAL vote on JIM. Which was not the truth at all. That was revealed after #90, where i asked the thing that Nerjin either mis-read or mistook. 2 posts later in post #92, he admits that he mistook it.

2. The green part I've called attention to the lurker to add additional pressure, the thing that quite a few people have been whining about here. At that time at post #103, shoesandhat's suddenly came alive from his semi-lurk mode with a good theory, with extremly crappy evidence/proof

3. The pink part At post #105, i told you that i misunderstood the question. Thus my hunt on him was not biased on what i was thinking, THUS it was proven invalid at that time. I did keep some suspicions about him though.

Not to shove it off or blame it, but this is my first time playing mafia. At that time i've had a hasty attitude, which nearly cost the head of an townie.

both 2. and 3. are pointed i think at comment #105.

I see why it looks like i've dropped XNY and suddenly addressed the lurkers. But now i ask this.

Borno: Shouldn't an townie pursue a new target(s) when he/she admits that he/she misunderstood what her opponent said?(thus rendering the entire argument against him invalid and biased from a mistake.)

[Mr.Zero]

Mr.Zero: you seem to be harassing people to supplement your pressure. Do you think the potentially added scumhunting, if any, is enough to counteract the hate and votes it earns you?
Also, in your last post, which was fairly large, you make no effort to hunt scum. The only reason at this point that I don't have my vote on you is that ShoesandHats is using really bad arguments to try and force a lynch on you, because you seem scummy.
Is this babies first buss that I see going on, or do you have a good reason why Shoes is scum?

Scottzar: Is harassing people bad? Isn't a form of pressure? I pressured him even more alongside the vote. Is this wrong for me to do?

______________________________________

Hate? These people aren't hating on me, the only one who possibly could is Nabic, for the comment where i asked for him to post and he came over aggresivaly. The other one was XNY, he could have been hating me because i attacked him unjust fully.
______________________________________

Will my additional scumhunting counteract this? I don't know, depends whether people find my arguments convincing. If not then tough luck for me.
______________________________________

Good reason why shoesandhats is scum? I don't know like...
1. He's shady about answering some questions.
2. He keeps clinging to his theory, but he doesn't support it with any arguments.
3. He's acting lazy
4. Instead of scumhunting, he still keep clinging to his theory.
5. Semi-lurk.
6. Tries to deflect questions if he ain't answering them.

What you will most probably notice is that these points already have been made on the board. That question is just plain stupid and shows that you are lazy and didn't bother to truly read everything and decided to have a go at someone and let him sum up the points for you.

______________________________________________

Here you attacking me for not having posted more.

Mr.Zero:
Also, in your last post, which was fairly large, you make no effort to hunt scum.

I replied with this.

Sweet jesus, Scottzar.. i Don't think that you have red the last sentence at the bottom of the quoteblock.

Cause i thought he may have no read that part, or that i have formulated the sentence in an odd way. Which could've led to him not understanding it, it has happened before with me.

However at #206, he magically pulls a fcking unicorn out of his ass. Stating that i found to deal with him more important than do the rest, while the reason simply was like stated earlier. I did not have time.

Then we got #210, where he asks why i didn't do X instead of Y, why i defended only against him and finally he asks why i was posting those small questions where i added that it was a PFP.

To justify the last answer as it may seem odd why i'm posting it during the day when i was supposed to have school. I'm learning to become an server admin, that specific course requires me to have an laptop during any lesson every day. Sometimes i can slack off slightly and post a quick answer, however this does not mean that i can write out a massive argument with quotations and all. Simply because i have work do as well during class.

[Mr.Zero]

Oh, i forgot to add one thing. I THINK that There was this question somewhere i believe from Nabic or Nerjin, which asked me something about scumminess. I cannot for a life find it anymore, could anyone link me to it so i can properly respond to it if it's directed at me?

[Mr.Zero]

EBWOP: #221

Scottzar: Why did you keep pressing me like that? while i've told you that my IRL time was limited and that i would finish it today?
Scottzar: Why did you lie as well? I've never stated in any comment claiming that i only defended against you. You only did.
I think that i know what you meant with that question, but il wait for your answer.

[ShoesandHats]

Thanks for calling me out on that. I guess the first time I looked over that I didn't notice that part of the post, or at least didn't think it was referring to the tie.

Bad Shoes, read posts more carefully!

ShoesandHats:  Why are you thanking Jim for calling you out rather than acknowledging it as an oversight?  Do you think kissing his ass will make him less likely to continue to vote you? 

I said thanks, and then I acknowledged my mistake. The reason I said thanks was that if he hadn't said that, I wouldn't have realized that I was wrong and I might have made more mistakes in the future.