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[lordcooper]

lol

[forsaken1111]

Silliness

Well you're entitled to your opinion. I happen to disagree on nearly every point, but have no interest in discussing it with you really. If you feel that way, you're welcome to stop purchasing alpha software.

[Neonivek]

By large, B12 forums are largely pro indie gaming, but I think people need to step back a second and look at the larger picture.

Bay12 games is not really what I'd call "Pro Indie" as much as I'd call them "Pro-gimic"

You have to try HARD to filter what it is about a game that makes it good outside of buzz words on here.

As well the knee Jerk reaction to looking at a game in purely gameplay related aspects is usually met with hostility as well. Since most people will take it as an attack.

Did this game look good to me when I heard of people talking about it? Absolutely. When I actually did my research and looked at it being played? No it looked a bit boring to me and the game already shows how it will pan out since the tech tree is finished, as well the inmates (one of the big things people advertised) were just so lifeless.

In fact the first disapointment I saw was that Prisoners just magically get weapons by being in areas where they can get weapons.

It goes to show that no matter how hyped something is, trying to be impartial for even a second can find things you would have fallen into.

[lordcooper]

Neonivek, you really ought to append "in this incredibly early alpha version of the game" to most of those statements.

Where has the developer stated that the current tech tree is final, or that no more work will be put into inmate behaviour?

[Mullet Master]

By large, B12 forums are largely pro indie gaming, but I think people need to step back a second and look at the larger picture.

Bay12 games is not really what I'd call "Pro Indie" as much as I'd call them "Pro-gimic"

You have to try HARD to filter what it is about a game that makes it good outside of buzz words on here.

As well the knee Jerk reaction to looking at a game in purely gameplay related aspects is usually met with hostility as well. Since most people will take it as an attack.

Did this game look good to me when I heard of people talking about it? Absolutely. When I actually did my research and looked at it being played? No it looked a bit boring to me and the game already shows how it will pan out since the tech tree is finished, as well the inmates (one of the big things people advertised) were just so lifeless.

In fact the first disapointment I saw was that Prisoners just magically get weapons by being in areas where they can get weapons.

It goes to show that no matter how hyped something is, trying to be impartial for even a second can find things you would have fallen into.

You know, most of my vitriol was because of my own filter failing, which is pretty unusual. I definitely should have looked at the game just a little bit closer before hitting buy. I've really bolded what bothers me the most about the game - lifeless inmates. A bunch of prisoners for no reason to be there and indefinite sentences, and they all have the same propensity to shank each other, crap on the floor, and steal weapons from thin air.

[Scelly9]

As said before, it's an alpha, it will get better.

[lordcooper]

How do you not understand that an alpha is by it's very definition not feature complete?  Judging a WIP game by the features that have not yet been implemented is plain stupid.

I mean, Shakespeare didn't just write "Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?" and then freak out and decide to scrap it because there's only one line there and where are the other thirteen lines and omg this is utter shit what kind of sonnet has only one line.  No, he wrote the rest of it.  And apparently some people think it was good.

[Neonivek]

How do you not understand that an alpha is by it's very definition not feature complete?  Judging a WIP game by the features that have not yet been implemented is plain stupid.

I mean, Shakespeare didn't just write "Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?" and then freak out and decide to scrap it because there's only one line there and where are the other thirteen lines and omg this is utter shit what kind of sonnet has only one line.  No, he wrote the rest of it.  And apparently some people think it was good.

There is a certain extent you can expect things to change. For example Prison breaks in the yards, gangs with members, and stuff.

Then there are others that you shouldn't.

Withholding purchace because what is in the game now is bland and uninteresting is hardly a bad choice.

As said before, it's an alpha, it will get better

Some aspects, others not so much. Since a lot of the major "Not possitives" of the game are that of design not of non-inclusion.

To put it into perspective. When you looked at "Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?" you should not expect Shakespear to suddenly change that line to Winter.

[Mullet Master]

How do you not understand that an alpha is by it's very definition not feature complete?  Judging a WIP game by the features that have not yet been implemented is plain stupid.

There is a long history of overpromised/under-delivered games. Fable series is a good example, as well as Spore, etc - games all which didn't nearly live up to their hype.

What's even more scary is games that really don't make many promises, because then they can never underdeliver. The way I interpret the PA blog is that it is an amorphous blob at this point, with only a few central ideas. Their response to Alpha 3 kinda cements that - change a major feature around due to community whining.  At this point, it is just as likely that there will not be the larger tech tree and better inmate characters if people don't get really vocal about it.

[lordcooper]

Withholding purchace because what is in the game now is bland and uninteresting is hardly a bad choice.

Not at all.  Making your mind up that it sucks and will always suck is very silly though, especially when you're presenting false and/or currently unverifiable assumptions as facts.

There is a long history of overpromised/under-delivered games. Fable series is a good example, as well as Spore, etc - games all which didn't nearly live up to their hype.

Yes there is.  I've had a lot of crap meals but I still eat out from time to time

What's even more scary is games that really don't make many promises, because then they can never underdeliver. The way I interpret the PA blog is that it is an amorphous blob at this point, with only a few central ideas. Their response to Alpha 3 kinda cements that - change a major feature around due to community whining.  At this point, it is just as likely that there will not be the larger tech tree and better inmate characters if people don't get really vocal about it.

Taking the time to make a slight adjustment that a lot of fans have requested is not a bad thing.  I'd go so far as to say that it's actually a very good thing and one of the main benefits of alpha funded games.

[Neonivek]

Not at all.  Making your mind up that it sucks and will always suck is very silly though, especially when you're presenting false and/or currently unverifiable assumptions as facts.

On the contrary. If the reason you don't like the game has to do something with the design that shows little sign that it will change. Then comming to the conclusion that you will never like it, is hardly an illogical assumption.

Going as far as to say it will "never be good" is also not a too illogical given that its exact opposite is considered appropriate in polite conversation.

Heck every single time someone brings up a point, a point that isn't meant to change, people just say "It will get better". As in they are expecting large fundemental changes to just how the game is. Not every game can be Dwarf Fortress.

[Scelly9]

As said before, it's an alpha, it will get better

Some aspects, others not so much. Since a lot of the major "Not possitives" of the game are that of design not of non-inclusion.

To put it into perspective. When you looked at "Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?" you should not expect Shakespear to suddenly change that line to Winter.

As I read it, a lot of the dislike was because of the flat prisoners. I think that prisoner background is a planned feature.

[lordcooper]

Not at all.  Making your mind up that it sucks and will always suck is very silly though, especially when you're presenting false and/or currently unverifiable assumptions as facts.

On the contrary. If the reason you don't like the game has to do something with the design that shows little sign that it will change. Then comming to the conclusion that you will never like it, is hardly an illogical assumption.

Going as far as to say it will "never be good" is also not a too illogical given that its exact opposite is considered appropriate in polite conversation.

Heck every single time someone brings up a point, a point that isn't meant to change, people just say "It will get better". As in they are expecting large fundemental changes to just how the game is. Not every game can be Dwarf Fortress.

Could you specify precisely what these set in stone design decisions that you dislike are?

[Neonivek]

Ohh nothing I was speaking in general.

If you want to know what I dislike about Prison Archetect that won't likely change. Just the overall feel. It isn't my sort of game.

[nenjin]

Ohh nothing I was speaking in general.

If you want to know what I dislike about Prison Archetect that won't likely change. Just the overall feel. It isn't my sort of game.

Dude.

You cannot go from making these BROAD generalizations, about the game, these forums, its culture and the moon, and then retreat to "Oh I guess I just don't like the feel of it." "It's not my kind of game." Either you have a point, and you're willing to explain it, or you're seriously just blowing hot air.

I think we as PC gamers are sending a strong message to developers right now.

I do too. It's that we're willing to spend money on experimentation and games that show their developers are going to stay with them. That they can spend 2 years developing a game to release and actually pay their bills without having to work under a publisher. That we're willing to stay with and support longer term projects if that means longer active development of the thing we're excited about.

I'm not saying it's not fraught with risk, it is. But it feels like less risky than going out and spending money on Call of Manshooter 4: The Manshoot-ening and hoping it's a meaningful experience that leaves me feeling excited rather than jaded.

I bought in to PA because a) I like Sims, b) I've wanted a good prison sim forever and c) it's Introversion and they've earned my respect and, in no small measure, some of my pity and compassion. The idea of a paid alpha to support development is absolutely nothing new. What has changed is the marketing of that alpha and the buzzword that was coined for it.

So yeah. You guys are both rather guilty of bellyaching about "things" and "stuff" without providing many specifics. The tech tree is most definitely not mapped out because it's already changed since Alpha 1, for example. Personally, most of the new features were things that were inhibiting my entertainment with their absence. Not having Guard routes was a must for me. On the other hand, the game is definitely easier now to an extent. In pure sandbox it pretty much runs itself.

Prisoner detail I agree is lacking, as are a lot of basic flow elements. (Prisoners not ever getting released, the fact they get all the places they aren't supposed to be making all your design work kind of pointless, ect...) On the other hand, it's quite a simulation already. You get a lot of granular control over things, and I like that, as opposed to any other lesser sim there'd be a ton of window dressing for relatively simple things.

They've already said they're going to be in alpha for a long time, my impression was at least a year. And I'm super stoked to see what they come up with in that. I did hit a point in my last jail where'd I'd basically done and set up everything, prisoners were doing stuff but still generally devolving into brawls and hospital trips and I was kinda done. But I'll still put another 6 to 8 hours in the next time I play.

Kinda like I do with DF, a game I'll play until my fort hits stasis and then I stop. I hear that game has been developed for years based on nothing but crowd support....