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Author Topic: Dnd campaign advice  (Read 4717 times)

Wrex

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2012, 01:32:48 am »

I say pathfinder. Stops you from abusing the dex/wis stacking monk.

Lolwat? Monk is a horrible* class, dude >.>. Pathfinder only made it even worse, which I found remarkable.

*Excepting dips
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Tack

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2012, 01:38:16 am »

Like all D&D classes, that is because you never figured out how to break the game with them.
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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2012, 01:41:34 am »

tahujdt, I'd suggest starting the campaign with a halfling kneeing one of them in the groin and stealing a coin purse.
I had a DM that did that almost every single time.
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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2012, 01:46:09 am »

Yeah, Tack, Monk needs all the help it can get. Vow of Poverty monk with a dip into Fist of the Forest, Battle Dancer, and Duelist will gain AC from everything but Strength. It doesn't matter if nothing can hit you. There's no reason to hit you. You can't do a whole lot to your enemies, so they'll ignore you and attack the easier targets. When they finish those off, you're screwed over by area attacks, Magic Missile, targeted spells like Insidious Suggestion, simply being pinned to the ground by a bear while another enemy kicks your teeth in, et cetera. Monks get Wisdom to AC as well as Dex because they can't wear armor while keeping their other (crappy) class features. What's a level 1 monk going to gain from that? 4? Assume he dumps everything else in 32 point buy and has 18 dex, too. That's +8 AC. Oh look, the paladin just bought some splint mail for 200 gold that adds 6, and he can still use his dex mod up to 2. Using his 14 Dex, he has just as much of a bonus. And he gets moderately decent class features.

(I like sticking up for the beatsticks and sneaky folk at times, but... monks don't usually use very good sticks and they're not very sneaky. Punching a dragon in the face doesn't do a whole lot.)

Like all D&D classes, that is because you never figured out how to break the game with them.
It's not that hard, really. Just increase their effective damage die to that of a colossal level 20 monk. Then you get to flail around and miss all the time with flurry of blows while being eminently killable. That's neat, I guess. You can hit like a truck... if you can hit at all. If you're able to reach your enemies. If you can find them. Fighting a ghost? Tough luck.
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Wrex

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2012, 01:48:09 am »

Like all D&D classes, that is because you never figured out how to break the game with them.


EDIT: ninja'd by Barbarossa.
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Heron TSG

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2012, 01:53:28 am »

I've actually had a player try to make a monk that could break my campaign at level 5. He did 12d8 damage per punch, the maximum that can be done with unarmed strike. He obliterated a bear, but the second encounter wasn't as kind. He charged right up to the enemy wizard and started trying to full attack it, but then was forced to make a will save, which he then failed. He couldn't attack the wizard at all due to a 3rd level spell cast as an immediate action: Hesitate. There is a serious problem when your character cannot bypass a stable low-mid level defense spell that most spellcasters learn.
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Kadzar

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2012, 03:20:36 am »

Like all D&D classes, that is because you never figured out how to break the game with them.
It's not that hard, really. Just increase their effective damage die to that of a colossal level 20 monk. Then you get to flail around and miss all the time with flurry of blows while being eminently killable. That's neat, I guess. You can hit like a truck... if you can hit at all. If you're able to reach your enemies. If you can find them. Fighting a ghost? Tough luck.
That reminded me that I happened to have been looking at the Tetori (a monk archetype/alternate class feature) earlier today. One of the features it gets (Inescapable Grasp) gives ghost touch for it's unarmed attacks along with the ability to grapple incorporeals. This only comes at level 17, but, still, he can wrestle ghosts. Also, before that, at level 9 he gains the ability to negate freedom of movement, and at level 13 that ability also allows you to effectively cast dimension anchor. And this is all a swift action.
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Wrex

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2012, 03:26:37 am »

Meanwhile others have a weapons capable of hitting incorperals at level, what, five? Negating FoM is good, yes, but a canny oponent will have other protections. Dimensional anchor is good, right? But you still have to hit them in the first place. This dosen;t cover being actually able to grapple them, and if they are not human, odds are they have such high grapple modifiers that they can laugh at you. It's too little, too late, in an enviroment where the wizard has been annihilating continents since level nine. Granted, if you actually do hit him, you might actually do something. That is a pretty tall order though.
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Kadzar

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2012, 04:20:27 pm »

Yeah, even in Pathfinder, the monk seems to be mostly a one trick pony. But the game seems, to me, to be more about making fun and interesting characters rather than stupidly overpowered ones. Yeah, if you wanted travel to another dimension, it would be best to get a wizard to do it, but, on the other hand, wouldn't it be a lot cooler to have a Hungry Ghost Monk/Qinggong Monk use the life force of his defeated enemies to power your trip through the Plane of Shadows to another dimension? And wouldn't you want to play a Drunken Master/Qinggong Monk who gets so transcendentally drunk that his boisterous shouts can stun people and cause damage?

And I must stress that this is all freely available on the web for free. If you want to use most 3.5 material, you either have to buy the books (and since they're no longer in print, you'll have to settle with whatever you can find online or whatever they happen to have left in stock at your nearest comic or gamestore) or pirate them. Whereas you can buy all the Pathfinder books at Barnes & Nobles if you absolutely have to (though you should look for a comic or gameshop first, as such places need your business and are a good place to find player, acquire dice and minis, play games, etc.).

Now, if you already had tons and tons of 3.5 stuff, I would say to play that. For anyone with plenty of 3.5 stuff at their disposal, especially if they are already playing and know all the rules, or anyone joining a group with such people, there's no reason to switch to Pathfinder. But, if you're just starting out, and have no connections to 3.5 at all and not a lot of money for books, Pathfinder is good to get started with.

Anyway, your choice doesn't have to be very definitive. Since Pathfinder is based off of 3.5, the games are similar enough that you can port things between one or the other relatively easily. Of, course, you'll want to know the system you're using well enough to know if what you're adding is really broken (I'd also encourage you to be wary of letting any 3rd party material you find in this SRD be used freely, as some of it is broken and/or just really stupid).
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Wrex

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2012, 07:00:57 pm »

Yeah, even in Pathfinder, the monk seems to be mostly a one trick pony. But the game seems, to me, to be more about making fun and interesting characters rather than stupidly overpowered ones. Yeah, if you wanted travel to another dimension, it would be best to get a wizard to do it, but, on the other hand, wouldn't it be a lot cooler to have a Hungry Ghost Monk/Qinggong Monk use the life force of his defeated enemies to power your trip through the Plane of Shadows to another dimension? And wouldn't you want to play a Drunken Master/Qinggong Monk who gets so transcendentally drunk that his boisterous shouts can stun people and cause damage?

And I must stress that this is all freely available on the web for free. If you want to use most 3.5 material, you either have to buy the books (and since they're no longer in print, you'll have to settle with whatever you can find online or whatever they happen to have left in stock at your nearest comic or gamestore) or pirate them. Whereas you can buy all the Pathfinder books at Barnes & Nobles if you absolutely have to (though you should look for a comic or gameshop first, as such places need your business and are a good place to find player, acquire dice and minis, play games, etc.).

Now, if you already had tons and tons of 3.5 stuff, I would say to play that. For anyone with plenty of 3.5 stuff at their disposal, especially if they are already playing and know all the rules, or anyone joining a group with such people, there's no reason to switch to Pathfinder. But, if you're just starting out, and have no connections to 3.5 at all and not a lot of money for books, Pathfinder is good to get started with.

Anyway, your choice doesn't have to be very definitive. Since Pathfinder is based off of 3.5, the games are similar enough that you can port things between one or the other relatively easily. Of, course, you'll want to know the system you're using well enough to know if what you're adding is really broken (I'd also encourage you to be wary of letting any 3rd party material you find in this SRD be used freely, as some of it is broken and/or just really stupid).


See, I wish making fun and intresting characters worked. Against even vanilla bruisers. there is jack all your typical melee can do. So you either nerf your encounters to allow them to stay relevant, or they are reduced to the level of camp followers. Or you house rule them, or only let the good optimisers play them.

I Quite frankly care not for flavour if the character is incompetent. A Competent character needs to be able to deal with the threats the come his way. If your monk folds the second "hit it in the face" stops working, he is incompetent. Those shouts accomplish roughly nothing, since d6 per level is simply pathetic, and he simply won't make the stun stick often enough. And If you do make it work, odds are that's all you can do. You see what I'm saying?
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tahujdt

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2012, 08:24:56 pm »

So, a 14-year-old asking for D&D advice derailed into an argument over monks.

Gods I love this forum.

Seriously though, if I'm going 3.5 what module should I start them out with?
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Wrex

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2012, 08:31:27 pm »

So, a 14-year-old asking for D&D advice derailed into an argument over monks.

Gods I love this forum.

Seriously though, if I'm going 3.5 what module should I start them out with?

I prefer to hand write my adventures. The first one, included in the beginner pack or whatever it was called, works well enough, except that the young black dragon tends to TPK.
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Zako

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2012, 08:49:05 pm »

If you are ever in dout, start out with the basics and do a few games in that. Then start finding out what they all like and prefer and start melding that into your campaign.
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Phlum

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2012, 10:05:57 pm »

If you are ever in dout, start out with the basics and do a few games in that. Then start finding out what they all like and prefer and start melding that into your campaign.

Totally agree.

The game is (in my view) basically a "roll to dodge" with a D20.
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LordBucket

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Re: Dnd campaign advice
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2012, 12:33:41 am »

Seriously though, if I'm going 3.5 what module should I start them out with?

...opinions will vary. Mine is: don't have your first DMing experience be with an official module. It's certainly a valid choice, but you're going to have enough to deal with without juggling a module, constantly hunting for the flavor text to read, trying to keep the players on task, dealing with it when they don't, etc. all while teaching your players how to play the game. Formal modules have too much overhead. I'd advise a simpler experience for your first session.

First session, figure you're going to end up spending 4-5 hours just helping people make characters. You might not even get around to actually playing. If you do, it should be a relatively stripped down simple combat encounter to familiarize people with the combat mechanics, which dice to roll, how far they're allowed to move on the map, what their combat choices are, etc. Even if you make characters with everyone separately and go into the first night with characters already made, still expect to spend a lot of time teaching people mechanics. Don't expect to have an epic role playing experience or a huge, well thought out plot arc.

Instead, just come up with a fairly simple scenario that will give you an excuse to have some combat, and maybe explore a small cave. Maybe...traveling between towns and ambushed by kobolds on the road, with the kobold lair visible from the road. Or the players can be traveling through the woods and stumbles onto a cave, or find a crumbling hole in the ground leading to a cave...caves are good. Spend 2 minutes drawing up a simple cave map with at most 3-4 hollowed out rooms connected by short tunnels. No need to have a full-on, complex dungeon with traps and pre-set encounters. On your first night, 3-4 rooms in a cave will be plenty to keep you occupied.

A few mechanics suggestions:
 * In combat, don't bother with initiative. Simply take turns. Simply rotate clockwise around the table through all the players, then you as the DM handle monsters. Repeat. Big time saver, greatly simplifies things and nothing is really lost.
 * Assuming you're using a map, I suggest allowing players to move their own pieces. However, expect to have to watch them for a while to teach them how far they're allowed to move per turn, and maybe a little longer before they'll be honest about it.
 * If they don't have miniatures for themselves, coins, bottlecaps, monopoly pieces or anything else will work fine just so long as everyone knows which one is theirs. Again, use dice for monsters and set each die to show face up what each monster's number is. It is a major hassle to have half a dozen orc minatures and try to figure out who is attacking which and which miniature corresponds to which label on your notes.
 * For monsters tracking, get a simple pad of paper you can tear sheets off of. At the top write generic monster stats, then simply give each monster their own line and just write something like this:

1) 12
2) 8
3) 8
4) 8

What that means is that you have four monsters. The first one has 12 hit points, and the next 3 have 8. When they take damage just scratch the number out and write their new total. Players can move their own miniature, tell you which monster they're attacking, roll, and you can quickly and easily scratch off hit points without having to go to the map yourself. Once your players are well trained you won't even need to look at the map except during the monsters' turns.



Again, just one possible opinion...the people above arguing over min/maxing and "which version is better" and so forth are giving you a very misleading view of what the experience is actually going to be like, and what you actually need to know. Whether TSR, WoTC, Iron Crown or whomever made your ruleset really doesn't matter at the end of the day. All the above silliness about overpowered classes is complete nonsense. Any competent DM will nip that in the bud right away and it will never be a problem.

What you need to do is not worry about versions or rules so much as becoming a competent dungeon master so that you'll know how and when to deal with things. That will take practice. And probably some trial and error. And it doesn't start by arguing over versions or classes. It comes from simple stuff like the above. Conducting your games in such a way as to engender a smooth and enjoyable gaming experience for everyone.





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