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[forsaken1111]

I take enough land to get me to 80% or so overextension and reinforce my troops while that land cores so that I can proceed. Of course this cycle is often interrupted by the fucking cherokee...

[MoLAoS]

It's hard to tell how many people vassal feed and, more importantly, to what extent.

So compared to the most dedicated cheesers/conquerers, yes, you are expanding much slower. Compared to the average? Hard to say.

There was a passionate complaint thread about the VF nerf on the Paradox forums. A lot of people think vassal feeding is a more interesting involved activity that the player has some control over and needs to put thought into, compared to war where you have barely any control. Use the optimal unit comp for your tech, hope for a good general when you blow that 50 mil points, carpet siege all day every day. I'd say 25 or more people posted there defending vassal feeding as fun and involved. There is a lot of strategy in doing it well. Personally I prefer the Iron Fist of Death over dip expansion. I used to constantly use the infamous "North Korea Method" in CK2 to get fast WC.

My expansion involves little cheese. Of the two attempts I made at vassal feeding one was a great success although I lost 2 attempts to core meath due to rebels. I ended up selling all the Irish lands to Connacht instead of coring Meath and I'll reap those benefits in about 10 years. On the other hand I tried to feed Oldenburg and it was awful. Turns out that stupid strategic interest modifiers meant I sat around with 164 overextension so that I had to peace out of a war on Lithuania and then stupid vassal wouldn't even take provinces right next to it with same culture and religion. Now I've got 2 useless vassals, I coulda had Oldenburg annexed already if I hadn't tried to feed, I got those rebels that ruined my core attempt on Meath and I had to lose 2 stab breaking royal marriages with Austria and Lithuania to clear up my dip rel limit. I'd unwin that conquest of Utrecht and Brunswick in a second because it cost me tons of AE and those 2 one and two province vassals are ruining my dip points.

[Tarran]

Yeah, I saw that thread. But "a lot" still isn't necessarily "most".

Anyway, a way to tell if the AI has Strategic Interest is to turn on AIview. If their want to conquer is high, they'll likely accept it.

[MoLAoS]

Where is the AI view???

[Tarran]

Open console (hit `), type "aiview", open up the diplomacy screen for your target, and hover over their flag/shield.

[MoLAoS]

I can do that in Ironman or no?

[MrWiggles]

Just for the record, I wasnt being condescending or sarcastic.

[bulborbish]

I can do that in Ironman or no?

You cannot access anything in the console during Ironman.

[MoLAoS]

That was what I figured. I guess I should have mentioned I am playing ironman.

[MoLAoS]

Just for the record, I wasnt being condescending or sarcastic.

Intention isn't magic. You just can't ask whether someone has not considered such an obvious possibility without sounding like a jerk. Might as well ask whether someone knows the sky is blue. I believe you when you say you didn't mean to come off that way, but that question is just extremely condescending by default.

[MoLAoS]

That was what I figured. I guess I should have mentioned I am playing ironman.

On a different topic, God hates me. Literally. A cardinal I outinfluenced Spain for 145 to 140 Papal Influence died. I had got 50 from an event so I loaded up on his replacement. Guy dies. Not only that but I've lost a total of 1000 Papal Influence to dying cardinals. In 75% of cases where one of my Cardinals gets elected he knocks out one of my already elected cardinals(I noticed a pattern and started keeping track). I haven't gotten a cardinal spawn for over 50 years even though I am the largest nation, Catholic or otherwise, in the game. In 80% of cases, 4/5, where I had to choose which cardinal to focus on until my Papal Influence bounced back, the guy I didn't pick was elected within 6 months and the one I picked eventually died before reaching the Curia.

I really need to gain control so I can drop two royal marriages and be able to annex all my vassals while still being able to declare war. I started this game in control, lost it 20 years in and never got it again in the following 80 years. I have a perfect relationship with the Papal State, the largest nation, perfect religious unity, and I am the Defender of the Faith and have been for 50 years. Unfortunately when your cardinals constantly die with 50-250 Papal Influence invested or bump another of your guys off if they do manage to get elected, no amount of player intervention can ever matter. There is no action of any kind I can take because the in game version of God has decided to screw me over. Its insane. I must have lost the equivalent of an extra 20 years of gametime due to losses of dip points since I can't cancel the marriages without a stab and prestige loss, but mainly a stab loss, plus the services of the extra diplomat. Hell I bit the bullet and cancelled 2 marriages awhile back. Unfortunately after my 2/2/1 king lived for 40 years, 15 of them when my 4/3/5 heir was of age despite sieges and battles and even trying to drown him at sea, and then my heir only lived 10 years to age 41 sticking me with an 8 year 1/1/1 regency. So I cannot afford to take the stab losses to break the marriages.

This shit is why I am an atheist. God never comes through when you really need him.

[WealthyRadish]

I think a good way of moving away from vassal feeding would be to make vassalizing nations easier, but maintaining/integrating vassals more difficult. Feeding one mega vassal up to its limits and then annexing it in 5 years doesn't make any sense, so I can see why it's an undesirable mechanic, but there just really isn't any alternative. I'd rather have it be much easier to force vassalization in a treaty, but much more difficult to keep them from recovering and seeking independence (more like managing to keep a fabricated PU in EU3).

[EnigmaticHat]

The problem with vassal feeding is that it doesn't make any sense.  Cores represent an area being in line with your county's culture, and your country being seen as having a historical claim to that land.  Neither of those things a vassal could offer you.  Also... when in history has vassal feeding, or anything like it, ever happened?

Its also undesirable from a gameplay perspective because its unintuitive, which makes the game less accessible.

The issue is that vassal feeding is required in the first place, but that just means the system is broken.  The answer is to fix the base system, not to leave an exploit in that fixes it in an awkward and unintuitive way.

[Rakonas]

The problem with vassal feeding is that it doesn't make any sense.  Cores represent an area being in line with your county's culture, and your country being seen as having a historical claim to that land.  Neither of those things a vassal could offer you.  Also... when in history has vassal feeding, or anything like it, ever happened?

Its also undesirable from a gameplay perspective because its unintuitive, which makes the game less accessible.

The issue is that vassal feeding is required in the first place, but that just means the system is broken.  The answer is to fix the base system, not to leave an exploit in that fixes it in an awkward and unintuitive way.

Except that's not what cores mean, they mean administration or something. Pretty much all decisions or events only give you claims which somehow represent your right to the land. You still face OE for trying to reclaim your land as the byzzies for instance.
It's so inconsistent in Eu4 it's irritating.

[MoLAoS]

Well I eventually became Papal Controller, I think all the +PI events I got were from the mission. And now that I am the controller barring crazy unforeseen circumstances I'll probably never lose it.

Sadly there was a cost. My second amazing king, 4/3/5 and now 4/4/1, died after only 10-15 years of service leaving me in a 7 year regency. Luckily my regent was decent unlike the 1/1/1 I had last time. Still, I can't fight any wars.

Also I thought I had a great shot at getting Spain in a PU but just as the last 2 times they had an heir at like age 60. I was hoping to have Spain and thus Naples in a PU by the time I begin or finish integrating France. Spain has 2 colonial nations and a lot of land. It's not even worth attacking them to try and get control, it would just take too long. I also just barely missed a PU with Hungary once or twice. At least I am allied to both of them.

I got Mazovia vassalized but even with only 19 base tax Poland still gets a 40 point penalty vassalizing. I could overcome that except the -14 trust I have from dissolving marriages, not joining wars, and breaking alliances that I did to get them small enough to vassalize. Once I can get them I'll go after Bohemia to return Plock to Mazovia, release Silesia so I can grab their other core back from Brandenburg later, and return as many Polish cores as possible. Then I'll have to gank the Ottomans to get a couple more Polish cores and release Serbia.

Once I integrate France I'll be able to force Austria to release some crap for later vassalizing and beat down Muscovy and Lithuania.