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[MetalSlimeHunt]

You can't use death camps as casus belli until you shut down Guantanamo.

Guantanamo is a bad place, but it isn't even remotely a death camp. That said, if I had things my way it would be shut down.

[Sheb]

Even if a unified Korea would benefit China economically, it would also mean US forces right at their borders. They cannot allow such things.

As for WMD, even if mustard gas won't turn South Korea into Fallout, an attack on Seoul could kill hundreds of thousands.

[kaijyuu]

I reiterate that anyone going in and "liberating" the north koreans is doomed to failure. Sure we could go in and depose everyone, including the Kims and the military, but if we gave power to the people to make their own government, they'd chose something quite similar.

Reform -- true reform -- doesn't come from external sources. It always comes internally. People will fall back on what they're used to unless they have to drive to change themselves.



So if you want to help them, hit them with propaganda for a few decades, or something. Help change their opinions. Don't run in and "free" them if they don't think they need to be freed.

[i2amroy]

*Antagonizing N. Korea into bombing S. Korea, with a heavy risk of chemical WMD's being used
Making Korea completely uninhabitable. Everybody loses.

Care to substantiate your magical chemical weapon which can render hundreds of miles of land uninhabitable forever and tell me how North Korea got their hands on it? Maybe North Korea deploys mustard gas bombs or something similar, but I don't even think the kind of thing you are describing even exists, much less is it in the hands of one of the most technologically backwards places on Earth.

To quote the very first two lines of the North Korea and weapons of mass destruction page on wikipedia:

North Korea (officially the Democratic People's Republic of Korea or DPRK) has declared that it has nuclear weapons and is believed by many to have nuclear weapons. The CIA assesses that North Korea also has a substantial arsenal of chemical weapons.

Regardless of what level the rest of their technology is at, North Korea does have nuclear weapons and is widely believed to have stockpiles of chemical weapons. (Remember, the Cold War period was when the height of Chemical Weapon Development occurred.) Combine that with their tunnel and guerrilla warfare mentality, and there are probably at least a few of these that we don't know about or would be unable to find in time to prevent them from being deployed. Plus I'm sure if the regime was toppled there would be plenty of people willing and able to sacrifice their lives by detonating a weapon at ground level after smuggling it into the target city.

While deposing the current regime might be a good thing overall, the death throes of said regime if it was overthrown through force would cause more damage then they are currently creating, even without China or other countries joining in on the fight. Yes, the current regime might be wiping out whole families if it thinks they did something against their will, but we are talking the wiping out of whole cities and the very ground they are on for potentially decades, and it can be seen that overthrow by force will not work if your goal is to lessen the suffering.


If you want to "save them" then the first thing you need to do is make them recognize that they need saving. The best course of action would be something similar to what kaijyuu suggested, with a combination of propaganda and various other methods (such as offering the use of teachers and doctors to help teach the next generation more of "the american way") being used to change the country, not force.

[i2amroy]

'Democratic People's Republic of Korea'

it's always the dictatorships or communist countries...

denial?

Probably.

[alway]

The problem is this: even assuming the military operation could be done in some magical manner that cleanly managed to wipe out the leadership and military of NK, you will still lose. This is a country whose citizens have for the most part had no contact with the outside world for over half a century. And the last contact they had, the outside powers were coming through, blowing shit up, and generally making life miserable. And that's assuming you have direct memory of that time; I can only imagine what the NK textbooks would say about it. So, right then, you've just gone in, blown shit up, killed one of their god-emperors, and then claimed your land for your country's eternal nemesis South Korea. Unless this plan ends with "and then we round up every NK and put them in re-education camps for a decade," you're going to have a guerrilla war on a scale that makes Afghanistan look like a street protest.

[Aklyon]

So, last time they saw us, guts and explosions.
And then they see us causing guts and explosions again.

Alway does have somewhat of a point there.

[alway]

And that's not including the results of military action itself. About 1 in 24* North Koreans are part of the military armed at any point in time. If the US were to invade, there would be significant warning, most of the reserve would likely be active; upping that number to over 1 in 3* North Koreans; over 9.4* million soldier in total. In order to destroy the NK military, you would be killing a significant portion of the population. Those who remained would, I imagine, be rather annoyed, to put it mildly, that you just slaughtered 1/5 of the population in order to "free North Korea." Every household in North Korea would be missing a family member or two.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Army

[Leafsnail]

Thousands of North Koreans have fled the nation, and those are just the ones who managed to escape, which isn't easy. The percentage of North Koreans who are well and truly brainwashed is for the most part an unknown factor.

Thousands out of millions.  It's unknown, but there's no reason to think it's anything other than a high percentage.  Bear in mind that for many of them literally all their information about the world would come via the state.

[Sheb]

Actually, one of the best course of action would be to help smuggle satellite phone, radios and soap opera from South Korea. We now have the technology to open them up to the outside world, and it'll be only a matter of time until the decide they want to be part of it.

I do pity South Korea that will have to integrate all those North Korean though. The unification of Germany was painful enough, and East Germany actually had an economy, educated people and whatnot.

[alway]

China's handling of NK is probably the most productive of any nation. They are friendly towards the NK government, providing a friendly voice encouraging reform; not reform which would result in an overthrow of the NK government, but reform which would result in raising the standards of living in NK. The difference being the one will be welcomed as friendly advice from a sympathetic ally, while the other would be (accurately) derided as a plot to get the regime to shoot themselves in the foot. Essentially aiming for reforms similar to China itself; where the people are much better off while still enabling government officials to remain in a position of control and power indefinitely. Sure, problems will remain, but if our goal is honestly to help the NK people, that's the best way to go about it; telling the regime it can go topple itself and should be a western democracy only leads to further pulling away from the rest of the world.

[Mageziya]

Let me throw some tidbits out there.

The Korean War never ended.

The US and North Korea are in the longest armistice in the history of Human kind.

Even more, The US does not officially recognize North Korea.

[lordcooper]

The US doesn't recognise most countries unless the names are written by them.  What's your point?

[Aklyon]

Is there a list of countries the US doesn't recognize, then?

[Loud Whispers]

Actually, one of the best course of action would be to help smuggle satellite phone, radios and soap opera from South Korea. We now have the technology to open them up to the outside world, and it'll be only a matter of time until the decide they want to be part of it.

New plan :

No military action is to take place.

Instead... An alternative.

Operation North K. Pop