Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Tiruin]

NF: You believe that Hapah believes ZU is a jester and wants to lynch him over that?

[NativeForeigner]

NF: You believe that Hapah believes ZU is a jester and wants to lynch him over that?

If my understanding is correct, then that is the case. In an earlier post of Hapah's, he basically stated that he didn't care what alignment ZU was, just that he wanted him lynched.

The post quoted by Toaster here, actually.

[zombie urist]

Friday got busy. Sorry

Oh, I never said that he was clean, I just never saw you state why you were tunneling him.

Where did I imply that you said he was clean? Also I'm not tunneling him.

Okay, "If you wanted scum-hunting done, why didn't you do some yourself instead of making a hypocrite of yourself?"

I did.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113809.msg3564655#msg3564655
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113809.msg3565443#msg3565443
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113809.msg3564662#msg3564662
Now, I will admit that that is less than I remembered, but the fact still remains that you didn't answer several questions.

Umm... The only unanswered question I see is in the last post. I've posted my reasons for OB earlier. I still think Toaster is scummy, but its mostly a gut read.

Oh, I'm sorry, before you started tunneling OB you voted Toaster, because he was scuuuuuuuuum.  Great work on the scum-hunting there.

RVS.

Still not seeing anything, could you quote it for me please?

1 2

If zombie flips scum, Toaster will be my primary suspect.

I won't flip scum, but please keep in mind that Toaster could still be.

...
While bad town is town, they're still bad. Bad players can, at best, be very distracting, and at worst, be so bad that the scum easily manipulate them into traps and plans. And, at the end of the day, I'd rather have the best town players at LYLO, because bad town are more likely to make the wrong decision and cost us the game. Now, I'm not saying I'd support lynching bad town over certain scum, but it's better to mislynch bad town than it is to mislynch good town.
...

So do you think I'm bad town or scum?

Or, you're saying things that make no sense to me whatsoever and/or are hilariously stupid, and I'm calling them stupid because that's what they are. Where do I contradict myself a lot? Where do I simply dismiss your arguments as stupid and not attempt to explain them at all? Where's your evidence?

Calling what I say stupid is a bad way to argue. This ironically is an example of you contradicting yourself. More examples. 1 2

From Tiruin.

So?

How helpful of you.

...you said, after berating Toaster for not throwing caution to the wind when lynching. Really, the only way you'd be playing to win was if you were a jester.

I didn't say that. I said that he's being to cautious, not don't be cautious at all.

Who do you suspect other than OB?

Toaster and PotL

[IronyOwl]

Sorry for the extended lurking. After rereading, I've concluded that I like the ZU Feeder theory and don't like the meh who cares let's lynch him twins. Also approve of claiming missing HP.


Hapah:

Except that we both know that that is a load of crap. I'd be completely shocked if everyone in this game doesn't have sort of damaging ability. Which means that ZU wouldn't necessarily have to make himself a threat to the scum, he just has to make himself a compelling target in general. Hell, if anything, there's more town than scum, so he'd want to make himself look like an easy/scummy target so he takes shots from the majority. Does this seem unreasonable?

This still doesn't explain what you actually think of ZU; in fact, if anything, this seems to imply that you do think he's a jester/martyr/feeder. Why do you want ZU dead?

0. NativeForeigner - Hasn't posted a question the entire game. Go ahead, look. Lurker.

And what do you make of that?

1. Toaster - If zombie flips scum, Toaster will be my primary suspect.

Why's that?

3. Orangebottle - Disagreed on HP claim, but it's just that: A disagreement.

So you feel he's justified and well-explained in his stance, or merely not scummy in his disagreement?

7. Phantom of the Library - Nothing suspicious, a little lurky balanced by the fact he's had a couple of pretty good content posts.

Why's Phantom the only player in the game you have more than one line of read on?

9. zombie urist - I have not a goddamn clue anymore.

Did you ever?

Also, if you haven't a goddamn clue on ZU, how the hell does his alignment impugn Toaster?




Orangebottle:

Toaster:

Bad town is town, and lynching town is a MISlynch, which is a MIStake.

I disagree.

While bad town is town, they're still bad. Bad players can, at best, be very distracting, and at worst, be so bad that the scum easily manipulate them into traps and plans. And, at the end of the day, I'd rather have the best town players at LYLO, because bad town are more likely to make the wrong decision and cost us the game. Now, I'm not saying I'd support lynching bad town over certain scum, but it's better to mislynch bad town than it is to mislynch good town.

See: Sorcerer's Apprentice III(page 35), where Vadia cost town the game by unvoting IronyOwl at what was essentially the last second, and didn't vote for an extension when they were able to and one was requested. While hindsight is 20/20, the better moves would've been to either let the vote tie and see what happened at night, or extend.

This explains why you'd rather lynch terrible town over not-terrible town, but it doesn't actually explain why it's okay to mislynch terrible people. I really don't like this carefree, nah it's okay to lynch town if they're bad attitude.

I also really don't like that example, because I don't see what it has to do with anything. This one player made a mistake this one time in this one game, therefore... what, exactly? Feels like you're trying to spook someone into mislynching with something along the lines of "You never know... they might be scum!!!"

All this feels especially off because earlier you claimed that murdering players regardless of how scummy they were was an optimal scum strategy. Now you're saying it's okay for town to do the same as well?

I still think we need consensus on claiming HP, though that may better wait until D2.

Alright, let's have a vote, then.
I vote not to claim HP, for reasons I've already stated.

You explained this, but I don't recall you explaining it in relation to the benefits. Explain to me why claiming HP totals isn't just harmful, but more harmful than good.


Also, what is your read on ZU? You've been focusing fairly exclusively on him, but I don't think I've seen you conclusively state an opinion on him yet.

[Hapah]

PPE: I'm falling asleep at the keys. No way I'll be seeing any responses to any of this before day ends, so just yell at me D2 assuming I don't get the noose.
Sorry folks. For those of you in other countries, 3-day weekend is American-ese for drunken hedonism time.

UI: So that's it? You wouldn't do something that would "almost certainly" result in victory because "it would feel wrong"?

And I still don't see how that would be any kind of cover. He said he had a post coming in 2 hours, and rather than beat myself up to stay up and make a post I went to bed and read in the morning.

NF:

This post bothers me. Why go for the supposedly inevitable jester lynch instead of trying to find scum? Nothing is gained by lynching a Jester and if he turns out to be bad town, even more is lost. It would be more beneficial to hunt scum instead. Please explain your vote on ZU in detail, who your top scum picks are, and why you're voting ZU instead of them.

I'm going to try to be as clear as possible. We're going to lynch someone, right? We lynch D1 because we need the information. We could lynch a lurker, but there's next-to-no information to be gained (though considering lurkers are half the damn players, I'd almost support it just to make an example of someone). Which means lynch candidates are probably going to be active players: more posts, more conflict, more information. Now, of those, people are going to pick the scummiest one and run with it. The thing is, nobody has solid enough intel this early to be certain that who they are voting for is scum.

Now, I think we can agree that ZU has been acting very odd, yes? The HP claim, the gut reads, the made-up numbers, the scumhunting hypocrisy...it just doesn't seem quite right. And he's gotten plenty of attention for it. The running theory at the moment is that he might be some sort of Jester-y 3rd party, and sure, he might be. It doesn't make his lynch any less informative, though. He might be scum that panicked (I kinda thought that when he claimed HP, but it still seems off), in which case yay scum lynch D1. And yes, he may very well be town. But since I don't feel I can lynch scum D1 with any degree of certainty, I'd rather go for the one that's confusing the hell out of me and being a lightning rod than fire into the crowd on a hunch. If others think they've got better aim than I do, by all means, put your vote where you want. I feel that a ZU mislynch, while unfortunate, would be better than mislynching any of the other active players. And if ZU flips 3rd party or scum, then we'll be in good shape.

IO: In order:

-Because the way I see it, he's either scum, a liability, or a distraction.
-I think his meta is always a really passive D1, but damn. He has been sick and working hard apparently, but he needs to have one hell of a D2.
-At the time, I thought it was because of his jumping to ZU's defense. In my defense, I'd had a little to drink. Toaster coming to ZU's defense if they were both scum would have had to happen a lot earlier if it were actually happening.
-I think two people can come to different conclusions.
-What makes the wordcount important? I thought he was lurky, but his posts have had better content than some of the others (NF, Shake).
-See above. I thought maybe Toaster was scum covering for ZU scum, but the odds of that are slim.

[NativeForeigner]

Unvote.

Hapah: See, that sounds significantly more reasonable than what you've been giving us. If ZU wasn't here, who would you be voting? How do you intend to deal with the lurkers?

-I think his meta is always a really passive D1, but damn. He has been sick and working hard apparently, but he needs to have one hell of a D2.

I'll still be working when D2 rolls around, but I shouldn't be sick. So I should be more active, even if it's only for an hour or two every midnight (PST).

Shake

I honestly did not know that Shakerag was in this game until this post.

OB: I somehow completely overlooked you as the other person actually wanting to lynch a townie on D1. If ZU wasn't around, who would you be voting and why?
Earlier you FoSed UI. Do you think he might be scum?
If so, why aren't you voting him and questioning him instead?
Don't you think it would be better to do your best to find and lynch scum than go through with a very probable mislynch?
Why is it that here you try suggesting that it's between mislynching bad town and mislynching town right now when it's really a between lynching scum and mislynching?

Also:

I abstain from answering; the only thing I have to base the answer off of is my own HP, and I'm not giving that up. The scum would likely have multiple roles to base the HP off of and a private chat in which to conspire.

a) You could have just said "I don't fucking know."
b) You also have ZU's HP claim.
c) How is the bolded section relevant?
[/quote]
a)True.
b)Also true.
c)Pointing out that I don't have those resources, and thus cannot guess like the scum would in that situation.
[/quote]

Why did you feel the need to point out that you don't have those resources when you were never prompted to? If you were town, you wouldn't feel the need to point out that you don't have access to scum resources.

[NativeForeigner]

EBWODP: Dammit, broke the quote somehow. I really should start using the preview button more. Bottom quote fixed:

OB:

I abstain from answering; the only thing I have to base the answer off of is my own HP, and I'm not giving that up. The scum would likely have multiple roles to base the HP off of and a private chat in which to conspire.

a) You could have just said "I don't fucking know."
b) You also have ZU's HP claim.
c) How is the bolded section relevant?

a)True.
b)Also true.
c)Pointing out that I don't have those resources, and thus cannot guess like the scum would in that situation.

Why did you feel the need to point out that you don't have those resources when you were never prompted to? If you were town, you wouldn't feel the need to point out that you don't have access to scum resources.

[Orangebottle]

Zombie:

...
While bad town is town, they're still bad. Bad players can, at best, be very distracting, and at worst, be so bad that the scum easily manipulate them into traps and plans. And, at the end of the day, I'd rather have the best town players at LYLO, because bad town are more likely to make the wrong decision and cost us the game. Now, I'm not saying I'd support lynching bad town over certain scum, but it's better to mislynch bad town than it is to mislynch good town.
...

So do you think I'm bad town or scum?

Scum. I always vote for the scum first. That entire question/post was there to drum up some activity because nobody was doing anything.

Or, you're saying things that make no sense to me whatsoever and/or are hilariously stupid, and I'm calling them stupid because that's what they are. Where do I contradict myself a lot? Where do I simply dismiss your arguments as stupid and not attempt to explain them at all? Where's your evidence?

Calling what I say stupid is a bad way to argue. This ironically is an example of you contradicting yourself. More examples. 1 2

Those aren't examples of me doing any of those things. I haven't just dismissed your arguments without some attempt at explaining why they're invalid/stupid/bad.
IronyOwl:

This explains why you'd rather lynch terrible town over not-terrible town, but it doesn't actually explain why it's okay to mislynch terrible people. I really don't like this carefree, nah it's okay to lynch town if they're bad attitude.

I also really don't like that example, because I don't see what it has to do with anything. This one player made a mistake this one time in this one game, therefore... what, exactly? Feels like you're trying to spook someone into mislynching with something along the lines of "You never know... they might be scum!!!"

The entire point of the disagreement was to get people to do things. You'll notice that in my disagreeing I neither implicate anyone as scum, nor call anyone in this game bad town; that's because I'm trying to get people to do things.

All this feels especially off because earlier you claimed that murdering players regardless of how scummy they were was an optimal scum strategy. Now you're saying it's okay for town to do the same as well?

In a way, yes. I'm saying that town needs to weed out the worst players in it if it wants to guarantee victory.

You explained this, but I don't recall you explaining it in relation to the benefits. Explain to me why claiming HP totals isn't just harmful, but more harmful than good.

I thought I'd explained it earlier. Oh well. The key point to my objecting is that it allows the scum to aim for multiple kills.

Also, what is your read on ZU? You've been focusing fairly exclusively on him, but I don't think I've seen you conclusively state an opinion on him yet.

I think he is scum.
Native:

I somehow completely overlooked you as the other person actually wanting to lynch a townie on D1. If ZU wasn't around, who would you be voting and why?

Right now, I'd be poking more at Toaster. I don't like his initial support of the HP claim.

Earlier you FoSed UI. Do you think he might be scum?

That's a silly question. Anyone might be scum. That being said, he's not paying as much attention as I'd like.

If so, why aren't you voting him and questioning him instead?

Because I think ZU is scum.

Don't you think it would be better to do your best to find and lynch scum than go through with a very probable mislynch?

"Probable mislynch"? I think ZU is scum. Why do you think he's town?

Why is it that here you try suggesting that it's between mislynching bad town and mislynching town right now when it's really a between lynching scum and mislynching?

What. Just, what. Why would I put it between mislynching town and bad town as town? That just makes no sense. The way ZU's been acting, he's either:
A)Bad town
B)Scum

I chose B.

Why did you feel the need to point out that you don't have those resources when you were never prompted to? If you were town, you wouldn't feel the need to point out that you don't have access to scum resources.

Because it's incredibly relevant to the question. With the question he's asked me, I would have to have a bunch of things that I don't have to answer it.

Actually, Native,

I somehow completely overlooked you as the other person actually wanting to lynch a townie on D1.

how do you know Zombie is a townie? It's not possible to have that strong of a read or an inspect yet. We're on day one. The only people that know who the town is is the scum.

Also, that was incredibly suspicious timing on both you and IronyOwl[/color]. Both of you hop on and vote me on the last possible day for voting. One right after the other.

[Orangebottle]

EBWOP: It's almost as if you're working as a team...

Nah, that'd be silly. After all, who would be protected by the WIFOM that generates? "Oh no, they couldn't be scum, scum would never work together in the open like that! But what if that's what they want me to think?" Etc.
TOTALLY not Irony and Native.

[Dariush]

I've been craptastically busy today. I only now got to the computer. Man, university is much less awesome than I hoped.

Everyone: Did Dariush answer

Mod: What does a lynch do to a hero?

This, yet?

Everyone deigns to answer. The champion is killed, barring some external interference.

Votecount:
NativeForeigner - Orangebottle, ;
Toaster - ;
Hapah - Urist Imiknorris, ;
Orangebottle - zombie urist, IronyOwl, NativeForeigner, ;
IronyOwl - ;
Tiruin - ;
Shakerag - ;
Phantom of the Library - ;
Urist Imiknorris - ;
zombie urist - Tiruin, Phantom of the Library, Hapah, Shakerag, ;

Not voting: Toaster, ;
LurkerTracker link

Day ends in about three (or maybe four) hours.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Mod: OB is voting Native.

Hapah:

UI: So that's it? You wouldn't do something that would "almost certainly" result in victory because "it would feel wrong"?

Yes. Partly because I hate jesters, and partly because harassing everyone would be almost as effective.

And I still don't see how that would be any kind of cover. He said he had a post coming in 2 hours, and rather than beat myself up to stay up and make a post I went to bed and read in the morning.

Allow me to sum up how I read it: "Hey guys, Native's not lurking and I want everyone to be aware of this fact if they aren't already."

OB:

I somehow completely overlooked you as the other person actually wanting to lynch a townie on D1. If ZU wasn't around, who would you be voting and why?

Right now, I'd be poking more at Toaster. I don't like his initial support of the HP claim.

So why aren't you?

What. Just, what. Why would I put it between mislynching town and bad town as town? That just makes no sense.

The bolded bit was not part of his question. If he thought you were town, why would he be voting you?

The way ZU's been acting, he's either:
A)Bad town
B)Scum

I chose B.

C)A jester.

[Dariush]

Meh, that's what I get for not reading PPEs.

Day ends in between one and two hours. Feel free to remind me about your vote-related powers now.

[Dariush]

Day ends in 45 minutes. Or maybe sooner, if nobody posts.

[Orangebottle]

So why aren't you?

Because I have nothing to go on with Toaster. Native has been lurking all day and only came out of hiding to throw a highly suspicious vote on me at the last minute, then disappear.

The bolded bit was not part of his question. If he thought you were town, why would he be voting you?

Because he's scum? Anyway, yeah, rhetorical question aside...

Why is it that here you try suggesting that it's between mislynching bad town and mislynching town right now when it's really a between lynching scum and mislynching?

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm merely disagreeing with Toaster, which allows for more discussion.

C)A jester.

Jesters are rare enough that it's less likely.

[Dariush]

The day is over. Please wait warmly while the girls are preparing. I mean flavor. The flavor is preparing.