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Father Sky

[Firehawk45]

More ideas. I can easily see orcs having Totempoles, lots of drums, Waaaagh-Banners and the like. I would also add multiple litter to them, and make them breed faster. Somehow sounds right. Fighting duels/contests also sounds fitting, but I wouldnt know how to add this.

Is it possible to have a creature transform into something else when it dies? because then it would only require one orc to transform into an enemie and the player to make sure his combattant is the only one in range.

[smakemupagus]

Orcs do get Cave adaptation (The yellow face, it burns!).  If they really don't ever go in then it might be that you are experiencing: in Masterwork the Tanner, Crematorium, and maybe other buildings can make people a little sick.

Other than that, I dunno.  The orcs don't have plague carrying castes so as far as I know, they shouldn't be susceptible to MWDF Dwarven diseases. 

Makeshift Bow (Goblin) <  Bows (Dwarf) < Recurve Bows (Orc basic) < Composite Bows (Orc fletcher) < Great Bow (Elves)

Composite bows are pretty good.  Not as good as the best guns or javelins etc. that the Dwarves can get, but I am hoping that poisoned / burning jagged arrows even the score a bit for the late game.  The fact that you can get Composite bows pretty early if you prioritize the Fletcher is somewhat a perk for Orcs.  Iron ones are mostly a waste of iron, but they're better if you get stuck in and have to melee with them.

@Meph: Totems, banners, and war drums sound good.  Are you thinking same mechanic as your dwarven Music stage? 

Lets say hypothetically i wanted to be able to summon friendly direwolves and hostile (to both orcs and enemies) minotaurs
(a) how to make direwolves tameable?
(b) how to control hostility of a summons?
(c) if it's possible, what is a fair price for the reaction?

   

[Meph]

Yeah, makes boiling stone, affects orc that is in the workshop. "orc has been transformed to orc drummer" and for some times he runs around buffing everyone around him.

Or, orc goes to workshop, single orc gets a buff. Go to Waagh-Banner = No Fear. These should be quite easily done.

Somehow I think that the normal domestic animals should be at least renamed a bit, but I dont know how extensive that would get. Pigs = Boars, Dogs = Wargs... something along these lines. Restricting animals is incredibly difficult, so.. well.. good luck with that if you want to try. ^^

Anything you would need help with ?

Edit: Oh, and would you be ok if I use the majority and/or complete system for trading you have for the humans, instead of the dwarves ? Since you said something about someone overruling someone else, I would like to keep the dwarves alone. It makes it much easier for people to install this, and for my GUI to possibly switch between orcs and dwarves. And your system would be used in the end, just for another race.

[smakemupagus]

Well, at the moment they don't get access normal domestic animals, only what their civ has managed to train so I really do embark with things like Boars and Panthers and not dogs or pigs   Given the limitations of the system for restricting animals I am OK with this.  I just might add a building that can upgrade some of the more Orky animals.  Spiked collars or iron claws or something.

Can you help with an example Orc Drummer?

@ Dwarven Merchants and traders... Yes, I always thought of that more as a proof of concept, and that if you liked the prototype you would apply your design magic to it one way or another.  Absolutely, incorporate bits however you see fit.  Do you want me to leave them in the "Orc Fortress" pack for now so people can play around with it? 

although

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My next project was going to be "Dwarven Research University" powered by money and producing usually just a book, but rarely an invention that changes the world like a magma generator

[Meph]

Lets say hypothetically i wanted to be able to summon friendly direwolves and hostile (to both orcs and enemies) minotaurs
(a) how to make direwolves tameable?
(b) how to control hostility of a summons?
(c) if it's possible, what is a fair price for the reaction?

a: Direwolf tameable should just be the TRAINABLE tag in the creature raw.
b: All summons are always friendly, but you can make them hostile by summoning a creature with CRAZED or OPPOSED_TO_LIFE.
c: No idea... your mod, your balancing. I havent played with the orcs yet, so I dont know how much of what they have in the end.


Help with Orc Drummer ?
Actually, you can skip the caste and transformation, and just add a syndrome. You cant have custom names and sprites though, but the people can read the "combat log" of the drummer playing games.

boiling stone that is created.
[INORGANIC:DRUMMING_1]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STONE_VAPOR_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:Drum Song]
   [SPEC_HEAT:1]
   [IGNITE_POINT:NONE]
   [MELTING_POINT:9509]
   [BOILING_POINT:9510]
   [HEATDAM_POINT:1]
   [SYNDROME]
      [SYN_AFFECTED_CREATURE:ORC:ALL]
      [SYN_INHALED]
      [SYN_CONTACT]
      [CE_CAN_DO_INTERACTION:PROB:100:START:0:END:33600] <= one month
         [CDI:INTERACTION:MUSIC_DRUMMING_1]
         [CDI:ADV_NAME:Bow]
         [CDI:TARGET:A:LINE_OF_SIGHT]
         [CDI:TARGET_RANGE:A:25]
   [CDI:VERB:play drums:plays drums:NA]
         [CDI:TARGET_VERB:hear drums:hears drums]
         [CDI:MAX_TARGET_NUMBER:A:100]
         [CDI:FREE_ACTION]


 interaction
[INTERACTION:MUSIC_DRUMMING_1]
   [I_SOURCE:CREATURE_ACTION]
   [I_TARGET:A:CREATURE]
      [IT_LOCATION:CONTEXT_CREATURE]
      [IT_AFFECTED_CREATURE:ORC:ALL]
      [IT_FORBIDDEN:NOT_LIVING]
      [IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:INSPIRED]
      [IT_MANUAL_INPUT:audience member]
   [I_EFFECT:ADD_SYNDROME]
      [IE_TARGET:A]
      [IE_IMMEDIATE]
      [SYNDROME]
         [SYN_CLASS:INSPIRED]
         [SYN_NAME:inspired by music]
         [SYN_AFFECTED_CREATURE:ORC:ALL]
        [CE_SPEED_CHANGE:SPEED_PERC:125:START:0:END:11200]

I just said ORC:ALL, but your taiga orcs have different creature IDs`?

Anyway, for the creature upgrades you would have to write a seperate creature for each one. Not too much work, just copy+paste the original creature, and add whatever you wanted to upgrade. ^^

Oh, and the summoning in workshops is super complicated, with transformations, melting of bodyparts, reanimation, again transformation... it is a horror. But if you give me the base creature and the wanted creature (orc spawns warg was my example I think) then I could write that. it will only be somewhat buggy, same as always with boiling stones...

[smakemupagus]

Nice, thanks.  I'll definitely take a look at using your method for War banners / Drummers.

I'm going to leave aside the summons, I think I prefer the Creature armory style upgrades. 

Would it be overpowered to be able to transform creatures into their giant (or man?!) variants?  Is that (a) possible at all or (b) possible to do in a general way rather than on a creature by creature basis?  Just brainstorming, i'll probably just end up giving them spiked collars

[Meph]

Giant version should be easy and a cool idea. Orc Shaman administers special shroom/magic mumbo-jambo, and dog grows to giant dog. Yes, you can just say target creature DOG:MALE and transform to GIANT_DOG:MALE.

There you go:
[CREATURE:GIANT_DOG]
   [COPY_TAGS_FROM:DOG]
   [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:GIANT][FREQUENCY:75]
   [CV_REMOVE_TAG:CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC]
   [APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION]
   [GO_TO_END]
   [SELECT_CASTE:ALL]
   [CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC:7368]
   [GO_TO_START]
   [NAME:giant dog:giant dogs:giant dog]
   [CASTE_NAME:giant dog:giant dogs:giant dog]
   [GENERAL_CHILD_NAME:giant dog pup:giant dog pups]
   [DESCRIPTION:A large dog-like monster known for hunting people amongst other things.]
   [POPULATION_NUMBER:10:30]
   [CLUSTER_NUMBER:1:1]
   [CREATURE_TILE:'D']
   [COLOR:7:0:0]
   [PET_EXOTIC][CREATURE_CLASS:PET_HEALING]
   [PETVALUE:500]
   [MOUNT_EXOTIC]
   [GO_TO_END]
   [PREFSTRING:impressive size]
   [PREFSTRING:echoing bark]

EDIT: Ops... read your post again. Yes, has to be done on creature by creature basis, you cant apply creature variants through syndromes. You wanted to do "giant growths"-reactions and ANY creature will be giant, right ? That wont work...

[smakemupagus]

How did you know what CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC to use?
I like this idea but I might stick to creatures which have Toady-supported giant version, at least for the first pass.

[Firehawk45]

Actually, the orc shamans dont transform the animals, they only make everyone around them really really high...... Dont do shrooms kids.

[gwathlobal]

My random impressions of the mod.
I started an aboveground fortress and played it for more than five years. Everything is cool, but unfortunately the feature of creating inferior weapons is rather redundant. In the beginning you do not have the weapons to be converted nor metals to batch smelt. Moreover, you can make great ironbone fighting fists virtually out of nothing. I just gathered all Uruk from the first two waves and the starting seven, armed them with ironbone and bloodsteel weapons, made them kill all animals in sight and by the first siege they were already pretty experienced. After the siege you do not need the weapons and armor because you can use those of your enemies. Human-sized armor fits you alright, elven mithril is too valuable, so the only option is dwarves, but that is clearly not enough. Besides you can have ironbone and bloodsteel which are better than rusty iron (or at least that's what I deduced from the manual).
So the slug pit is only good as a smelter. The factory is rather costly and is only usable as a source of bricks. I am yet to discover its capabilites of a wood furnace bacause it seems to burn farmed trees in stacks so it can make a stack of 6 steeloaks into 4 charcoal pieces, which is worse than an oridinary wood furnace. However this can be a solution to the excess seeds problem (it does burn the farmed trees together with seeds, doesn't it?).
The great thing, however, are the bows and lamellar armor. Alas, yet again the bows get obsolete after the first elven siege, but in the beginning my Snaga were quite capable of incapacitating enemies even with wooden arrows.
And why is it possible to create katanas  from mithril powder only? I have tons of mithril bars but can only create scimitars.

So, my suggestions on the matter.
1) Make the factory burn logs, not farmed trees. To address the "excess seeds" problem, make it burn them each log together with a seed.
2) Give the orcs a possibility to create katanas and other high level stuff out of bars. Either directly, or by being able to grind bars into powder and then using the standard procedure.

PS. It would be great if you or Meth could add a reaction that could use seeds to turn them into something valuable. Because right now with all those cannibalism going on you get tons of meat and twice as much tallow. The good thing is however that Orcs don't need alcohol so you can keep your seed amount under control.

PPS. Another nice thing would be a reaction to turn honey jelly into food (or drink, or whatever) directly, without the need to "ARRGGH!!!" against the monitor as the game displays the message about "no cookable solid items". In this way it will be possible to create an aboveground fortress without resorting to food farming (so no "excess seeds"). Food from meat, drinks from mead, clothes from leather and wool.

[smakemupagus]

Awesome, thanks for great feedback, all going on the to do list

Factory, i think i will implement your changes to the wood, I thought that it would handle stacks better than that so I'm glad for the note.

I think it's OK that looted Elvish great bows are better than Orcish bows -- the idea was that at that point the fletcher could transition into making arrows including poisoned/enchanted arrows.  Also I get what you're saying about mithril bars but I wanted the katanas to be special and not easily mass produced.  You have me rethinking it for sure.  On the other hand Mithril scimitars (or serrated axes, etc.) are not *terrible* after all   Glad you seemed to enjoy it, hope you'll check out future versions too

cheers

[Meph]

Did you try out the merchants/diplomats for goblins ? I am really curious about what they would trade/offer, and what message the diplomats and traders bring. I know they exist in vanilla, so they might have a custom wording, and not just: greetings to your stout dwarves. That would be bad of course ^^

[Firehawk45]

I think trade with goblins existed in vanilla at some point, they offered mostly food and cloth, nothing special.

[Meph]

Yes, but my goblins are different.

Anyway, made a little something for you, fitting to the topic:



Download

Replace fortressintro in data/annoucement and you are good. The only problem is,that it will always show this text, no matter if you embark with dwarves or orcs, so if you want to use this, you should make dwarves non-embarkable.

If I ever add embark races to MDF I will make the GUI replace it automatically, so it fits the embark race you picked.

Is the wording ok? If you got other ideas just send me the text. I can also add generated names of your CIV, your FORT_NAME and LOCAL_PREDATOR. Couldnt find more tags then these three.

[smakemupagus]

Meph, That is awesome, I had no idea it was possible!  And your text is already perfect.

I got distracted by "Magma factory" testing but now I will be back on Orc Fortress