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Author Topic: Gunman Opens Fire at Midnight Batman Release - 14 Dead, more Critically-Wounded  (Read 52239 times)

MrWiggles

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By that completely technical and semantic definition everything is tools.
Yep. We're a heavy tool using animal.
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Doesn't like running from bears = clearly isn't an Eastern European
I'm Making a Mush! Navitas: City Limits ~ Inspired by Dresden Files and SCP.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113699.msg3470055#msg3470055
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kaijyuu

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Yeah, pretty much. Tool = anything we use to make a task easier to accomplish. What that task is is irrelevant.

So what you should be taking issue with isn't the fact that guns are tools, but that their use being violent (and only violent) means they aren't tools people are justified in owning. Still tools, but that fact doesn't justify them.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Starver

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Even if guns were illegal(wich would be shit too, given a honest person would not be able to get a gun to defend against the dishonest), people would still be easily able to get guns.

Here is where I usually go "Gun control [to the extent of that the UK has] could never be implemented [in the US]", or something similar.  Because the US has so many guns that if they were made illegal that even with all the honest handings-in/deactivations/destroyings of weaponry, there'd be enough left in the general population[1] to make it unsafe for those that unilaterally disarmed.  (And, in theory, also more unsafe for those that were never armed but could have been.)

In the UK, though, there are gun crimes, and there are illegal guns...  Probably more so, since a string of pretty much one-off events[2] made legitimate gun-ownership almost non-existent.  But the general populace are not armed.  Petty robbers are therefore never armed, and most people[3] never encounter a firearm.  This feeds into the police not needing to be generally armed (although there are armed-response units available, when required), which may well feed back into the habits of the criminals, and back on to the general populace, etc...

There's one part of the UK where there's significant (homocidal) fire-arm death rate, according to figures I have here...  Northern Ireland has a homicide rate of 5.24 deaths per 100,000 people, per year.  Larger than the US's figure of 4.14, but both of these much larger than the England/Wales rate of 0.07 and the Scottish rate of 0.19.

Suicide (by fire-arm) rates for NI is 1.34, c.f. US's 5.71 and across mainland Britain it's 0.33.  To add to this, there's 0.12 "Unintentional" deaths sit approximately half way between the US (0.23) and the mainland (0.01 to 0.02).

Note, the results for the US are from a different source and different years from the UK ones.  And, actually, NI/Scottish results are back before a lot of the Irish 'Troubles' were politically resolved...  So that may be skewing things.  (I checked, and there's no results for Eire (non-British Ireland) in the source I'm looking at.)

Given this note, I'm not going to say as how we're generally Ok without guns (having no general history of having them) with supporting evidence that the bit of the UK where there was a vested interest in certain 'active' individuals having guns, because the people (and/or authorities) who opposed them were almost certainly going to be just as armed...  But you've got to admit that it'd be a good supporting argument to having a place where guns are not, and have never really been, so commonplace.


Some might be surprised that with a much higher amount of gun ownership that the US only has twenty times or so the accidental deaths of mainland Britain.  On the contrary, I expect that in a place where guns are commonplace, the everyday usage of the weapons would lend themselves to having a much more open attitude to teaching about their general safety, both by the owners and those around them.  (The laws of the UK, definitely arguable about being draconian in many respects, are quite strict about weapon ownership and where they are stored, but when you're not handling a gun every other day, or so, you're probably more prone to certain accidents.)

The fire-arm suicide rate is much higher in the US, and really bulks the US's total fire-arms death-rate up, and position in the rankings.  I suppose I should check the general national suicide-rates before I comment on this, though.  I suspect that when someone is desperate enough to go down this route, having a gun at hand means that you're already provided with one of the more obvious solutions.


[1] Either already illegally being circulated, or from those previously legal owners that went "whooops, just had my entire collection destroyed in a freak meteorite impact!"/whatever, totally 'unaware' that some kind and prescient person had managed to remove his collection and thus save it from destruction.

[2] Hard cases making bad laws, it could be argued.

[3] There are possible exceptions to this in some inner-city 'gangs', which (if you care to peruse through various news reports) seems to be making gang-on-gang killings and collateral deaths a large proportion of the killings.  Much more than the occasional "going postal" event, or other criminal revenge-inspired rampage.  American influences are found aplenty, in these sub-cultures, but I don't know how one would quantify the importation of the willingness to use guns in the same memetic package as the rest the attitude arrives in...
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Leafsnail

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The funny thing being the hammer was the first tool created by mankind for the sole purpose of killing other people :P
How can you possibly claim to know this.
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Lagslayer

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Spoiler (click to show/hide)
He's referring to a simple club. Probably a stick or something.

Lord Inquisitor

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2001 movie give answer, pick up bone, win argument, I am the king!
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http://cataclysm.tiddlyspot.com/index.html Cataclysm Roguelike game Tiddlywiki mostly out of date
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113337.0 Who makes alcohol? do you? post here then.

Leafsnail

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But how can you claim to know it was created with the sole purpose of killing people?  Other animals who use hammer like tools generally use them to smash nuts.
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scriver

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Nuts are people too! My nuts are several million people. Smashing them would practically be a genocide!

But yeah. Thinking people started using tools to hit each other harder rather than for tooly use is kind of weird, not to mention completely unverifyable. But I'm pretty sure he was just trying to make a joke, Leafsnail. Even if I personally didn't find it very funny either.
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Love, scriver~

Cecilff2

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I have definitive proof that hammers were first used to break open coconuts.(And subsequently to bash snakes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0u7Rb2fU4cA#t=443s


 :P
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There comes a time when you must take off the soft, furry slippers of a boy and put on the shoes of a man.
Unless of course they don't fit properly and your feet blister up like bubble wrap.
Oh ho ho, but don't try to return the shoes, because they won't take them back once you've worn them.
Especially if that fat pig Tony is at the desk.

Nadaka

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But how can you claim to know it was created with the sole purpose of killing people?  Other animals who use hammer like tools generally use them to smash nuts.

The other apes that use hammers to smash nuts also use hammers to smash delicious monkeys and other apes.

Sometimes a chimp argument can not be resolved by the polite flinging of poop. And the argument evolves to the more human hurling of stones.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

scriver

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But how can you claim to know it was created with the sole purpose of killing people?  Other animals who use hammer like tools generally use them to smash nuts.

The other apes that use hammers to smash nuts also use hammers to smash delicious monkeys and other apes.

Sometimes a chimp argument can not be resolved by the polite flinging of poop. And the argument evolves to the more human hurling of stones.


Protip - that makes it not the sole purpose of killing other people. You're either not getting what Leafsnail's point or defeating yourself with your own words.
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Love, scriver~

GreatJustice

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Even if guns were illegal(wich would be shit too, given a honest person would not be able to get a gun to defend against the dishonest), people would still be easily able to get guns.
*STUFF ABOUT THE UK*

Alright, some legitimate points here. I also have some legitimate points to make about UK gun laws.

First, lets look at this friendly chart comparing British crime to American crime. Right off the bat, you'll notice that per capita, the UK has higher crime statistics in just about every category except gun crime (which I'll get to in a bit). Its rather sad that a country nearly six times smaller than the US has a little over half as much crime.

Second, so far as gun crime goes, it's worth mentioning that the UK has always had extremely low gun crime even before it introduced most of its gun control laws, and violent crime with guns actually increased after laws introduced restricting ownership. Meanwhile, gun crime in the US has steadily been mostly decreasing and hasn't had major increases since the major riots in the 1990s. One could argue that UK gun laws decreased gun crime increases marginally compared to the US I suppose, but then that's counterbalanced by increases in every other type of crime.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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Frumple

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Yeaahh... RE: the whole US vs UK crime thing:
Ah... yeah, re: violent crime, it's a good thing to remember that there's probably quite a tremendous amount of unreported crime going on right now in the American prison system. I'm not quite sure if the reported crime rates for the US are actually taking that into account... I know for a long while rape rates in the states weren't, just as an example.

I'd look into it a bit, but I seriously don't feel like being depressed at the moment :-\

The depressed bit stands. Plus there's a notable chunk of the states outside of prisons where crime just isn't fucking reported, or the (heavily corrupt and/or impotent) police ignores the reports. Suffice it to say I'd suggest a serious grain of salt when it comes to crime statistics in the states, right now.
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Ask not!
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What you can hump for your country.

Pnx

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Even if guns were illegal(wich would be shit too, given a honest person would not be able to get a gun to defend against the dishonest), people would still be easily able to get guns.
*STUFF ABOUT THE UK*

Alright, some legitimate points here. I also have some legitimate points to make about UK gun laws.

First, lets look at this friendly chart comparing British crime to American crime. Right off the bat, you'll notice that per capita, the UK has higher crime statistics in just about every category except gun crime (which I'll get to in a bit). Its rather sad that a country nearly six times smaller than the US has a little over half as much crime.

Second, so far as gun crime goes, it's worth mentioning that the UK has always had extremely low gun crime even before it introduced most of its gun control laws, and violent crime with guns actually increased after laws introduced restricting ownership. Meanwhile, gun crime in the US has steadily been mostly decreasing and hasn't had major increases since the major riots in the 1990s. One could argue that UK gun laws decreased gun crime increases marginally compared to the US I suppose, but then that's counterbalanced by increases in every other type of crime.
Interesting... Murders are substantially lower (even accounting per capita), yet drug use is reported a lot more. Yet aren't most murders supposed to be associated with drugs?
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GreatJustice

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Even if guns were illegal(wich would be shit too, given a honest person would not be able to get a gun to defend against the dishonest), people would still be easily able to get guns.
*STUFF ABOUT THE UK*

Alright, some legitimate points here. I also have some legitimate points to make about UK gun laws.

First, lets look at this friendly chart comparing British crime to American crime. Right off the bat, you'll notice that per capita, the UK has higher crime statistics in just about every category except gun crime (which I'll get to in a bit). Its rather sad that a country nearly six times smaller than the US has a little over half as much crime.

Second, so far as gun crime goes, it's worth mentioning that the UK has always had extremely low gun crime even before it introduced most of its gun control laws, and violent crime with guns actually increased after laws introduced restricting ownership. Meanwhile, gun crime in the US has steadily been mostly decreasing and hasn't had major increases since the major riots in the 1990s. One could argue that UK gun laws decreased gun crime increases marginally compared to the US I suppose, but then that's counterbalanced by increases in every other type of crime.
Interesting... Murders are substantially lower (even accounting per capita), yet drug use is reported a lot more. Yet aren't most murders supposed to be associated with drugs?

Quite frankly, I don't think drug use should be considered a crime, since a crime generally has a victim. Piracy really doesn't belong on that list for entirely different reasons.

Besides that, yeah, I'd say an overwhelming portion of American crime is caused by the War on Drugs. Were the Drug War ended, violent crime in general would likely decrease by leaps and bounds.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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