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[Egan_BW]

If the player has an active role in how the story plays out, usually with a bunch of complicated mechanics and a long playtime but it's not required, it's a role playing game. A game where the player embodies a character in the story.

If the story isn't interactive but is very long and dramatic, then it's a JRPG.

Either way it helps if the game mechanics are crap so that the player can invest their entire focus into the story and world! /s

[McTraveller]

So - is Super Mario an RPG? Does eating a mushroom, fire flower, or star count as equipment / stat bonuses?

What about a racing game, where you get cars with more horsepower, stiffer suspension, etc. or other "equipment bonuses"?

How do you have a game that doesn't depend at all on some "ability of the player" even if that ability is... configuring the stats?  Yes, I'm asking if auto-battlers could be considered as having RPG elements in this context.

EDIT: this is in the spirit of a philosophical discussion by the way. Just pondering after being in some discussions about "that's not an RPG!" "Oh yes it is!" stuff.

[MCreeper]

I would think that RPG is an unfortunately stuck ad slogan for Baldur's Gate or something even older (computer game based on RPG system you know and love!), since no single player game can be an RPG in original meaning. 

[heydude6]

Does an RPG need to have a story? That’s the main question I want to ask. If the answer is no, then a racing RPG probably is possible.

Stat progression seems a necessity though. Otherwise it’s just a choose your own adventure.

To test this theory, would Undertale still be an RPG if its vestigial remnants of a stat system were finally ripped out (story consequences aside?), or would it just be a turn-based bullet-hell battler?

[Ulfarr]

So - is Super Mario an RPG? Does eating a mushroom, fire flower, or star count as equipment / stat bonuses?

What about a racing game, where you get cars with more horsepower, stiffer suspension, etc. or other "equipment bonuses"?

These are great examples which, honestly, I've never thought about as possible rpgs before.

For super mario, I would like to say it isn't an rpg, but I've barely played the 1st or 2nd game for the old game boy (the big one) so I can't talk about the whole franchise. My reasoning is that the equipment/power ups that you mentioned, are usually too limited either in duration, maps, or uses to force the character in a specific and defined gameplay loop.

Now racing games, in my opinion can be rpgs with each car fullfilling a different role. Being able to change cars does negate most of limitations of having a rigid role, but still each car has a playstyle and race types were they excel and others were they don't. With that in mind it's up to the player to either roleplay a single character/car or not.

How do you have a game that doesn't depend at all on some "ability of the player" even if that ability is... configuring the stats?  Yes, I'm asking if auto-battlers could be considered as having RPG elements in this context.

Short answer: You can't remove the player's ability.
Long answer: It's a game not a 1-1 function. Even in the same rpg, with the same characters, two different players can and will take different actions at some point and that might affect the outcome.

I don't know what an auto-battler is. I might not have been clear on my take in my previous post, but I believe an rpg isn't about the stats by themselves. It's the mechanics and their effect on the gameplay options that a player might have. The character's stats are just a representation of their "abilities", in other words of the mechanics they can or can't use. And it's important for an rpg to have mechanics that are exclusive to certain characters, otherwise you don't play a role, you play all roles and that's defeating the point.

Some examples:

In NFS:Underground 2 (iirc) you can have a car that has great top speed and acceleration but poor control/handling. So when you came to a corner you had to hit the breaks a lot or you'll hit the bars and lose control,time etc. That means that on maps with lots of corners you were on disadvantage and you might want to avoid them, which you could to some extent.

Again in the STALKER games, a character with good radiation/anomaly resistance could go through anomaly fields in order to attack or evade some enemies. Or had to run from certain enemies because their high recoil sniper rifle is a bad weapon against small and fast creatures that like to swarm you. Or they couldn't even run because they opted for a weapon or armor that disabled the ability to run.

And to give an example of a "bad" rpg design, vanilla Skyrim, where each and every character is expected and quite often forced by quest design, to do everything in every run (join all but maybe 2 guilds, do all quests, learn all the shouts, maybe learn all spells).

[Frumple]

So - is Super Mario an RPG? Does eating a mushroom, fire flower, or star count as equipment / stat bonuses?

Y'know, this makes me want to throw hammers at you

Super Mario has a line of RPGs stretching back to the SNES, and continuing onwards through the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi lines pretty much straight into recent systems, too. Absolutely the super mario RPG games are RPGs, like, duh.

Anyway, my go-to for this sort of thing is if the devs and/or significant amounts of the playerbase call it a X, that's good enough to call it a X and quibbling beyond that is a probably* waste of time you could be using to play the game instead. Genres are largely shorthands just to help people find things similar enough to something they like they're likely to enjoy it (or dislike/want to avoid), it doesn't do basically anyone any actual good to hold them to stricter standards than that. Be loose like non-asshole definition of roguelike, flow like water, play like thirsting person in desert, uncaring of what species of cactus you sup from.

*I mean, if you enjoy that, then I guess you do you, just try not to bother folks less worried about hyperprecise genre pigeonholing, i.e. basically everyone else, heh.

[EuchreJack]

FYI, this discussion is an RPG.

[hector13]

I would consider an RPG to be something that has a system that means a character can be good at something that doesn’t necessarily correlate with player skill, and tends to change as the game goes on such as through level ups or whatever.

Like the SPECIAL attributes and other skills in Fallout. You can be good at gunplay as a player, but the various interactions between equipment, skills, and attributes determines damage during any particular battle. It doesn’t matter how suave (or not) you are as a player, your character’s charisma attribute and speech skill (possibly reputation also) determine the success of that speech check.

Contrast with Mario, in which things like mushrooms and fire flowers only give some cushion for power skill. It doesn’t matter how many mushrooms you have, if the player is incapable of beating Bowser, they’re not beating Bowser.

[scriver]

This is my definition: An rpg, in computer games terms, is a game that seeks to emulate the experience of playing a tabletop rpg; or a game where playing roles, in the tbr rpg sense, is the focus of the gameplay.

It's not conditional on characters having stats or an inventory system, but the presence of stats and gear will often be part of it since they are so common in the tbt-rpg-sphere.

Jrpgs are honorary rpgs because of their shared roots, as are roguelikes.

[Eschar]

Does an RPG need to have a story? That’s the main question I want to ask. If the answer is no, then a racing RPG probably is possible.

What would prevent a racing game from having a story, though?

[Frumple]

Nothing? Plenty of racing games have some degree of story or plot, iirc there's even a few that's pretty involved. It's not super common or emphasized just due to the games tending to focus on the zoomy bits instead of fluffwork, but it's out there.

... anyway, there's been several racing games over the years with RPG mechanics, as well as various vehicle-themed RPGs, so no, nothing's preventing there from being a racing RPG. I don't really know of any genre or game style that's outright incapable of mixing with RPGs, really.

[hector13]

Pretty sure the newer F1 games have a story. Pretty sure a lot of the old Need For Speed games had a story.

[Egan_BW]

I had the thought today that a rhythm game JRPG would be pretty sweet. I'd probably make you keep up the rhythm even while just picking your move, to keep things going.

And think, your little anime blorbos could each have their own instrument-weapon and the music would do a solo when they do their special moves, it would be great guys...

[Frumple]

I've noted it somewhere or another before, but a combo system ala Xenogears would slot entirely neatly into a rhythm game design; you enter the note sequence and then let it rip, pretty straightforward design if probably pretty finicky in the details.

Could swear someone's actually done it, or something of similar intent, before, too.

... and by "swear" and "it" I mean I just checked 'cause it was bugging me and there's several different implementations of rhythm game rpg, both turn based and real time, so. Yeah. It's not a new or untested concept, heh.

[Rolan7]

I had the thought today that a rhythm game JRPG would be pretty sweet. I'd probably make you keep up the rhythm even while just picking your move, to keep things going.

And think, your little anime blorbos could each have their own instrument-weapon and the music would do a solo when they do their special moves, it would be great guys...

Before The Echo (previously called Sequence) is a great little rhythm game with JRPG elements and character dialogue.  You can grind loot and craft equipment and levels (or just be really good at the game instead).

I really like the story, art, and the voice acting.  The main characters are really clever and kinda hot, including the "villains".  The plot is a bit more complicated than it first appears.

The main gameplay is sorta like a Guitar Hero (or Frequency/Amplitude) played on three tracks which you rapidly swap between.  On one you play notes to block enemy attacks (occasionally).  Another has constant notes you can jam to to build your mana.  On the third you play a little sequence to cast a "spell"/attack.

It sounds really overwhelming but once you figure out what to prioritize it's not that bad.  You can tank a few hits (particularly if you cast a shield, and maybe some regen).  It's a lot easier than, say, Cook Serve Delicious or Guitar Hero in my experience.  Even the ultimate challenge ending.

Oh and the music is nice!