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[Askot Bokbondeler]

See why do you need to let the child do their own thing and sometimes get hurt for it? Because you want them to know better.
And why do you want them to know better? Because you won't always be around to protect them, so they need to be ready for that day.

Does god let us suffer so that we are ready for a time when he isn't there and things get worse?

No, he dose it so we can use our free will, he dont want to be the God who dose everything for us, tells us everything to do and we blindly follow him, he wants us to come to him with love and having our own minds, and our own things

See my parents did it, they are still here, they can still help me but they dont do everything for me, that's what God dose, forever, God's not going anywhere, we are just getting our free will and learning how to be our selfs

My parents will help when I need it, but they are letting me be my own person because a life where someone else dose everything for you is not living, even you I think agree, or would you rathher the goverment tell you what to do, who you can marry, who you date and what you say?


HE lets us choose, be with him or not, would you rather him not let you pick?

he lets us choose shit. i have no choice. some people would chose to be female instead of male, but god made us and the world so they can't. some people would chose to live instead of die, but fuck that, that's not how the world works and you got no choice there. some people would chose to rape and kill. yeah, god's okay with that

[Askot Bokbondeler]

"yes, because you have to prepare them for the shitty life the creator laid out for them. they have to cope with suffering, because there will be no paradise afterwards"

You can belive that and it will be true for you, I just hope you don't end up regretting it

See? God lets you pick, would you rather he force you?

by "there will be no paradise afterwards" i meant that adult life is no paradise. a trully loving parent wouldn't want anything that made their children unhappy, but he has to do it sometimes or the child will grow up expecting life to be easy, and have will a hard time functioning as an adult in a world that is not how they would chose it to be. that does not apply to godhood, our "adulthood" in heaven will be perfect, so there's no reason our "childhood" in earth has to be so shitty. unless heaven is even worse, oh boy

[Wolfy]

he lets us choose shit. i have no choice. some people would chose to be female instead of male, but god made us and the world so they can't. some people would chose to live instead of die, but fuck that, that's not how the world works and you got no choice there. some people would chose to rape and kill. yeah, god's okay with that

Show me one place anywhere choice and free will = doing what ever you want?

It dose not, just because you have choices dont mean everything you want will happen, no promise of that was ever giving

Free will dose not = can do what ever, no one ever said that, you will find no evince of it anywhere in the bible

As for male and female, maybe he DOSE let you pick before your born, you would not know, but again its the power of will, of wanting to, of being able to say "hey i want to be a female" not the action of it.

God lets you be in control of your own actions, not everything every where at anytime, you will find nothing that says that.
God never said you could fly if you wanted to, he just gave you free will.
That will in no way means you will get what you want, no where at all is it a 100% thing that becuse you want it you get it, it just means you CAN want things of your own acored.

Nobody chose mass plagues that kill thousands in some of the most painful ways imaginable, or famines that leave children looking like living skeletons. God has these to answer for.

You will find even in those there is goodness, plagues lead to death but also new life, as dose fires, as dose an animal killing another animal, its death gives birth to new life

I believe anyways God gave free will to all life, even plagues form Bactria  and what not, while there is no mention of this in the bible 9 Just like it never says the world is round or a billion other of things) its my belief
He dont force it on us, he don't stop it form going on to us, he may cure it I would not know.

Again dont claim this is "right" it is a belief, just like yours that there is no par dice, or that God cant have a logical reason for it.


And if they so choice they go to haven when they die, I will not say this is what God had in mind, I dont know, you dont know, but that don't mean what he has in mind, or why he did it was good or bad.

No amount of 'Being with him' has ever cured the sick.

Some claim it has, has it? I can not answer, but there are plenty of "healing" and people living that cant be explained by modern science (Dont mean god is behind it of course, it could be anything, my point is if we cant exsplain it then you cant say "it was not him" with out it just being faith it was not)

by "there will be no paradise afterwards" i meant that adult life is no paradise. a trully loving parent wouldn't want anything that made their children unhappy, but he has to do it sometimes or the child will grow up expecting life to be easy, and have will a hard time functioning as an adult in a world that is not how they would chose it to be. that does not apply to godhood, our "adulthood" in heaven will be perfect, so there's no reason our "childhood" in earth has to be so shitty. unless heaven is even worse, oh boy

Or maybe its so we can have the free will, and pick to go to heaven or not? let us decide not at any one moment but decide over our life time?
That would have nothing to do with hard times in hevan, but rather wanting you, as a own thinking, breathing person who has time to grow and understand God and what he offers pick

it be like if the parent forced the kid to do football or what not, in some cases it may of helped yes, but in most it did not.

Maybe he dose it because he wants you to come to him, and with that comes trials, because if you just "go to him in haven " then who knows it may be like a kid who is giving everything, its not the same, and its not giving you a fair chance to pick

If I asked a kid what he wanted in the world he would say something (most likelu) like toys, would you say its fair to ask then or latter when he has time to make up his mind?
with free will comes change, and just putting us there instantly leads to problems I belive

There are a billion of ways to "claim" god is evil and an equal amount of ways to see good in it, no one is right cause non of us know what he thinks, or if he really exists, we just simply believe

[Max White]

You will find even in those there is goodness, plagues lead to death but also new life, as dose fires, as dose an animal killing another animal, its death gives birth to new life

Umm, no. No I think you will find that is pretty much bullshit.
Fire can be used for both destructive and constructive means, yes.
Eating meat is pretty morally justifiable in my opinion.

You will be pretty fucking hard pressed to justify good in some of the horrible suffering that is happening to people as I type because of diseases. Seriously, you can dance around throwing flowers saying 'But GOOD things come from it too!' but can you actually point out what good?

Some claim it has, has it? I can not answer, but there are plenty of "healing" and people living that cant be explained by modern science (Dont mean god is behind it of course, it could be anything, my point is if we cant exsplain it then you cant say "it was not him" with out it just being faith it was not)

Well some claims, in fact many, are wrong. Clear cut and objectively wrong. You can't cure a cold with highly diluted poisons, you can't cure cancer with the power of wishing really hard, and you can't cure cystic fibrosis with prayer.
Just because something is not currently understood by modern science doesn't mean it can not be understood. There have been countless false claims of miracles in the past, but when put under the microscope they always, always come down to natural cause.

[Max White]

Well yes, they most certainly would.
If everything we think we know was shown to be wrong, and earth is riding on the back of four giant elephants on the back of a giant turtle, modern science would ask what gender is the turtle?

[Wolfy]

Umm, no. No I think you will find that is pretty much bullshit.
Fire can be used for both destructive and constructive means, yes.
Eating meat is pretty morally justifiable in my opinion.

so why is eating meat okay for you?

You will be pretty fucking hard pressed to justify good in some of the horrible suffering that is happening to people as I type because of diseases. Seriously, you can dance around throwing flowers saying 'But GOOD things come from it too!' but can you actually point out what good?

To point out, desies came when man sin, its part of sin, dose that excuse it? I don't know, but its there because of sin, (if we take it as God being real, which you are by asking me why God dose something)

Well some claims, in fact many, are wrong. Clear cut and objectively wrong. You can't cure a cold with highly diluted poisons, you can't cure cancer with the power of wishing really hard, and you can't cure cystic fibrosis with prayer.
Just because something is not currently understood by modern science doesn't mean it can not be understood. There have been countless false claims of miracles in the past, but when put under the microscope they always, always come down to natural cause.

Your wrong, you can not 100% proof this, or have ANYWAY of knowing this, there is no way to keep track of it, at least admit this is just your belief, I'm man enough to admit (and I did in that post) that I can only believe  they happen, i cant prove they do, can you do the same?

If not, I seem to recall its your side that says we pretend like our beliefs are right, and thats what makes us so annoying

I'm openly admitting, I could be wrong, are you going to do the same?


Also the whole "modern" science" if you read my post you will see I JUST SAID THAT, my point was we cant explain it whih means you cant say it always  can be explained because you don't know, you believe it can.

also if we are talking of God and we are acting like he is real how can you honestly say "cant" to be talking about miracles , if we talk about god then he CAN heal those things, but if you dont believe in him then talking about miracles  makes no diffidence

[XXSockXX]

IIRC the turtle is female and became a parent recently. The more interesting question is how the elephant knows when to lift it's leg to let the sun pass through.

[PanH]

And once you have done all the things?

Fortunately, I never will. Hooray for the nature of infinity.

But you'd also have to do an infinite number of repetitions of infinite variations on an infinite number of activities (presuming of course the number of activities in the afterlife is infinite, which I suppose it would have to be).

Eternity is confusing...

I personally find the non-afterlife quite terrifying. I would rather believe in an infinity doing nothing, but I am atheist.
It's like not existing .... never. For an eternity. Sure, you wouldn't think/feel it. But still ....
(Fornever ?)

And I would ask 'Why was Terry Pratchett right?'

Because it's turtles all the way down.

[Starver]

Okay, this is entirely unrelated to the current conversation, but I checked in on this many pages ago and noticed we were having a debate about what agnosticism was and how it related to atheism.
...
How'd that wind up getting resolved (if anybody cares)?

I didn't follow that debate, but I would say that agnosticism is a statement like "maybe there is a god, maybe not, I do not/can not know". Important for agnostics is the question wether you can actually know something like that. Atheism would say something in between "Probably there is no god" and "I definitely know there is no god". So atheism assumes that you can make statements about the existence of a god.

For me I don't see atheism[1], and agnosticism[2] as quite so unmixable.  Much as there can be agnostic theists.  Obviously the "harder" the (a)theism, the more likely it is that this opinion is because you have an erm... 'gnostic'[3] certainty and are less likely you go "but who knows!?!", but I wouldn't rule anything out entirely.

This may already have been covered, but I haven't been able to check (this thread's going mad, right now).


(Fakedit (to reply to something now three more replies intervening): It's not inconceivable that one person has the right idea (although there's rapidly diminishing returns on there being significantly more of them in total agreement).  I would personally appreciate the Universe more if there was (somewhere, perhaps not beneath our feet...) an astrochelonian.  But that's another issue altogether.)

[1] A-theism (no God_opinion) through to Athe-ism (no_God opinion).

[2]  Itself ranging from "I don't currently know" through to "One could never know".

[3] Noting that capital-G Gnosticism is not the antithesis of agnosticism and is really something else.  I'm not going into the capital-G meaning here.

[Leafsnail]

And I would ask 'Why was Terry Pratchett right?'

The Science of Discworld series is pretty interesting, with the Discworld used to explore what humans generally think the world should be like versus what the world actually is.

[MagmaMcFry]

See why do you need to let the child do their own thing and sometimes get hurt for it? Because you want them to know better.
And why do you want them to know better? Because you won't always be around to protect them, so they need to be ready for that day.

Does god let us suffer so that we are ready for a time when he isn't there and things get worse?

No, he dose it so we can use our free will, he dont want to be the God who dose everything for us, tells us everything to do and we blindly follow him, he wants us to come to him with love and having our own minds, and our own things

Statement 0 (straight from the Bible): God exists.
Statement 1 (also from the Bible): God is omniscient.
Statement 2 (also from the Bible): God is omnipotent.
Statement 3 (also from the Bible): God created the universe.
Statement 4 (specialization of 1): God knows the past, present and future of every imaginable universe.
Statement 5 (specialization of 2): God could have created every imaginable universe.
Statement 6 (concluded from 3 and our existence): From all the universes God could create, God created this one.
Statement 7 (concluded from 4, 5 and 6): God knowingly chose to create this universe so this past, present and future would happen.
Statement 8 (concluded from 7): God decided all our actions.
Statement 9 (concluded from 8): We have no free will.

There are a billion of ways to "claim" god is evil and an equal amount of ways to see good in it, no one is right cause non of us know what he thinks, or if he really exists, we just simply believe

Since you say that no-one knows if he exists, you concede that there is no evidence for God.
In that case, why do people know about him? Who was the first person to believe in God, and why did he start believing? Since there is no evidence, he must have made it all up.

[XXSockXX]

For me I don't see atheism[1], and agnosticism[2] as quite so unmixable. 

I didn't mean to imply they were unmixable. There is definitely some overlap between agnostics and soft atheists. It's just that they have a different emphasis. Atheists have more or less made up their mind, while agnostics haven't or don't think they can.

Nice touch with the footnotes btw, very Pratchett-y.

[Max White]

And I would ask 'Why was Terry Pratchett right?'

Because Pratchett is always fucking right, dammit! Even when he is presenting a subjective view, he is objectively right.
In that way, he is a lot like a girlfriend, except a lot hairier.

To point out, desies came when man sin, its part of sin, dose that excuse it? I don't know, but its there because of sin, (if we take it as God being real, which you are by asking me why God dose something)

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was the dark age, and we still think that illness is caused by demons entering the body. That sickness is our earthy punishment for our crimes against superman. That disease is caused by sin, and not tiny pathogens! Fuck washing your hands, unless it is in a basin of holy water! The common cold turns up most often in winter because that is clearly when people most often partake in devil worship, right?
Are earthquakes caused by homosexuals and school shootings caused by secularism too?

Your wrong, you can not 100% proof this, or have ANYWAY of knowing this, there is no way to keep track of it, at least admit this is just your belief, I'm man enough to admit (and I did in that post) that I can only believe  they happen, i cant prove they do, can you do the same?

If not, I seem to recall its your side that says we pretend like our beliefs are right, and thats what makes us so annoying

I'm openly admitting, I could be wrong, are you going to do the same?


Also the whole "modern" science" if you read my post you will see I JUST SAID THAT, my point was we cant explain it whih means you cant say it always  can be explained because you don't know, you believe it can.

also if we are talking of God and we are acting like he is real how can you honestly say "cant" to be talking about miracles , if we talk about god then he CAN heal those things, but if you dont believe in him then talking about miracles  makes no diffidence

I'll be willing to admit I'm wrong. I will bend over backwards and proclaim to the world that wishful thinking really does help, assuming you use the right sort of incense. All you need to do is show me objective evidence.
You want to say that praying helps people? Show me.
If I want to say the earth is round, I need to show you some evidence, and I can!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ok so to be honest that doesn't really cut it, but you can go outside with a stick and calculate and do the measurements for yourself over the coarse of a day and, depending on how well you can measure a shadow, get reasonably close.

Science doesn't exactly 'prove' anything because that doesn't leave room for refinement, but don't be mistaken into thinking that makes it in any way subjective. In that way I can never prove that a virus is causing your cold, but I can say that in every case ever of ever having a cold anywhere ever, this virus has been there, showing correlation, and I can show what it does to cause the cold, showing causation. I can objectively say that the virus caused the cold.
You just don't have that. You don't have certainty. You don't have reliability. All you have is wishful thinking and cognitive bias.

EDIT:
Relevant.

[Wolfy]

Statement 0 (straight from the Bible): God exists.
Statement 1 (also from the Bible): God is omniscient.
Statement 2 (also from the Bible): God is omnipotent.
Statement 3 (also from the Bible): God created the universe.
Statement 4 (concluded from 1 and 3): When God created the universe, God was omniscient.
Statement 5 (specialization of 1): God knows the past, present and future of every imaginable universe.
Statement 6 (specialization of 2): God could have created every imaginable universe.
Statement 7 (concluded from 3, 4 and our existence): From all the universes God could create, God created this one.
Statement 8 (concluded from 5, 6 and 7): God knowingly chose to create this universe so this past, present and future would happen.
Statement 9 (concluded from : God decided all our actions.
Statement 10 (concluded from 9): We have no free will.

Wrong, once again, you misuse the bible
Statement 7 is where you fail most, where at all dose it say he did not create them all? and only made ours?

You also assume that god knowing of all possible universes, means ours is premeditated, for all we know its not, we have free will, he dose not decide, he just can see "past" this universe, and past this "derision" if you will and see all choices we ever could make, it dont mean he knows we will make this one or that one, or if he dose, it dont mean he makes us pick it
we still pick it

Even if there is one unversed, it don't mean he picks because nothing says he dont see all the pathways and we pick which ever we want, heck there could be an ifnite amount of paths and he could still see them all



An example, my mom KNEW I would pick the new guitar, cause she knows me so well, she knew before it happen, and saw it coming, dose that mean she picked for me? NO

We still pick the ones we make, its like watching a play. I may know the lines and all , it don't mean the guys in the show  did not pick choices there.

being all seeing and all knowing don't mean he controls it at all it just means he knows and see

heck it could be like time travel, he sees the future, say a caveman goes in to the future and sees GW become president, it dont mean he picks for us

Since you say that no-one knows if he exists, you concede that there is no evidence for God.
In that case, why do people know about him? Who was the first person to believe in God, and why did he start believing? Since there is no evidence, he must have made it all up.

this logic fails so bad
No one knew at one time if the world was round, why did people believe it was not? who was the first person to think it? and why did thet? since there is no evinced of it (to them back then) it must be made up
Correct? of course not.

Just because you cant prove something dont mean its made up

We cant prove that there is life on other planets
Why do people know about life on other planets? who was the first person to? and why?
no evinced? made up

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was the dark age, and we still think that illness is caused by demons entering the body. That sickness is our earthy punishment for our crimes against superman. That disease is caused by sin, and not tiny pathogens! Fuck washing your hands, unless it is in a basin of holy water! The common cold turns up most often in winter because that is clearly when people most often partake in devil worship, right?
Are earthquakes caused by homosexuals and school shootings caused by secularism too?

Oh stop it, I'm being polite to you, do the same to me
I have not done anything to say "your wrong"
I've not insulted you, I'm trying to nicely talk of our beliefs, please do the same

I'm not saying demons cause it, I'm saying (if you need it in science terms) when in the garden of eden, we could not get sick, we were immune to everything, sin caused us to become uimmune, when they eat the fruit, they gained life AND death, AND death, eating that furit gave us life and death and so we die on this earth only to be united after death with God and the way it used to be, no more plague, no more sickness, no more sin.
I dont belive "sin" in of it self kills, it allows for it
A man who gets killed is no more a sinner then you or I
We all sin, they are not caused by Satan, us humans of our own free will keep on sinning.

"Science doesn't exactly 'prove' anything because that doesn't leave room for refinement, but don't be mistaken into thinking that makes it in any way subjective. In that way I can never prove that a virus is causing your cold, but I can say that in every case ever of ever having a cold anywhere ever, this virus has been there, showing correlation, and I can show what it does to cause the cold, showing causation. I can objectively say that the virus caused the cold.
You just don't have that. You don't have certainty. You don't have reliability. All you have is wishful thinking and cognitive bias."
But you dont either, you dont have proof all "miracles, can be explained, you don't have proof there is no par dice, and here is the thing I'm not asking for  proof 9as in expecting to get it cause I know you cant give it, neither can I)

[PanH]

If I want to say the earth is round, I need to show you some evidence, and I can!

Technically, what you showed could be just a disc. And my (this) post has no real point whatsoever.