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[Sheb]

I would point out that they were fairly certain the world was round at the time, so of course they expected to join China.

[Hiiri]

Hello Hiiri

Greetings, Deathworks

What exactly would be a suggestion of divinity in your eyes? Given that gods are by definition a different level of existence from our own, double-guessing their motiviations and predicting their goals seems a bit difficult to me.

In that sentence I meant any of the traditional gods which are said to interact with reality.
Whoever claims such thing as "divinity" exists has the job of defining it.

Nope, there were also a lot of people who expected them to drop off the world at that time. And before the explorers set off, most people judged that the earth was flat - because you could stand steadily on it without falling away, for instance.

Most people, as in people who had no idea what they were talking about? Or most people, as in people who actually studied these subjects?
Knowing their motivation for sailing west, I would assume there were people who knew what they were talking about, and their answers weigh more than those who know nothing about the subject.

Oh, so how do you think about quantum physics, or easier, about atoms and molecules. I suppose they did not exist in the Middle Ages because they were not shown to exist yet. Or if you allow for their existence despite not having shown to exist back then, how can you disallow for the existence of divinity only by pointing out that we have not yet shown its existence?

And atoms were proposed even in Ancient Greek, so the search had been on long before the Middle Ages.

If you were unable to demonstrate the existence of atoms, then yes, it would be irrational to assume such things existed. Hypotheses are all fine, but that's all they are, hypotheses.

I hope my text isn't too painful to read, as it is to write.

[Max White]

Objectively, I have no way to tell you not to enslave me. I only reject that option once I accept the subjective assumption that my happiness has a positive value.

So we are willing to accept things that might be subjective for our own arbitrary happiness? Well while I can not prove the existence of a material universe, I can assure you than accepting its existence leads to a lot more happiness than rejecting that assumption.
Will accepting there us a deity for no reason make you any happier? That there is some overlord that we must worship of be condemned to Sheol? That we must act in a 'moral fashion' by killing homosexuals and enslaving blacks and owning women?
Happiness comes from well being. Well being comes from knowledge. Knowledge comes from choosing observation over superstition. When I'm sick, I want somebody who understand chemistry and human biology to make me better, not somebody who believes really strongly that their god will help.

[Grek]

Perhaps fortunately for us, what we desire, the degree to which obtaining those desires will make us happy, the origins of these desires and the likelihood that a given course of action will bring us closer to obtaining our desires are all empirical facts that can be decided using the method outlined in my immediately previous post. Being enslaved very clearly makes people less likely to get what they desire and as a result, makes them less happy with their lives. It can be empirically proven (and thus, objectively proven, because empiricism is objective) that being a slave will, in fact, make you miserable in pretty much all cases.

The lack of divinity doesn't leave us with a lack of morality - it is entirely irrelevant to the question in the first place.

[Siquo]

Will accepting there us a deity for no reason make you any happier?

Well, it did, for a lot of people. The 10 commandments (give or take a few) are pretty basic to a functioning society. Having an all-powerful, all-knowing police force that can hunt you even after you died helps keeping crime levels down as well.

[kaijyuu]

I'll pop in and point something out about the empiricism/solipsism thing I kinda brought up earlier.

If you want to turn that argument around against a theist, it's really easy. If they reject scientific evidence, then they by necessity must also reject the majority of empiricism. Anyone who rejects scientific evidence but not empiricism has some unresolved cognitive dissonance (and hopefully isn't one of those legitimately insane people who accept mutually exclusive beliefs). All mainstream religions have claims of phenomena that would be empirically measurable, such as "this dude lived at X time." Most people will side on empiricism, which means they'll retcon old stories as metaphorical, but hey.

[Flying Dice]

I am not sure whether you are correct about my thoughts. It may very well be that on the objective side, there is no downside to you enslaving me and the ones I love and making me do arbitrary tasks. It may very well be that is good if you cause suffering to me. Actually, if you go down to it, atheism itself endorses the belief that there is no downside to any decision as there is no meaning for doing or not doing something. In a world without divinity, my death or suffering is just as good as my life and happiness. And the same goes for everyone and everything else.

I've got a serious issue with this. Do you mean to suggest that the only thing which could possibly allow for the existence of objective moral truths is a deity of some sort? I know that certain sorts tend to embrace nihilism for the sake of nihilism, but it seems rather strange to dismiss moral realism out of hand. Not to mention earlier attempts at formulating an objective ethical code by, say, Kant.

In short, I don't need any sort of supernatural being threatening me with torture to recognize that there are things which are "right" and "wrong", "praiseworthy" and "blameworthy", and which are so regardless of what I would like them to be. I don't need a sword hanging over my neck to motivate me to act rightly insofar as I understand rightness. Granted, religion is a useful tool for keeping a bunch of Bronze-age commoners or medieval peasants on something resembling the straight and narrow, but it is hardly the be-all and end-all of objective morality. It's certainly easier to light a fire if you have flint and steel, but they are hardly necessary when we have lighters and matches.

"God" is one way in which an individual can recognize and process objective moral truths, not the only way.

[Cthulhu]

a·the·ism/ˈāTHēˌizəm/Noun: The theory or belief that God does not exist.

There is nothing in this definition that implies any kind of viewpoint regarding ethics, morality, or anything that isn't whether or not God exists.  Conflating "atheism" with all kinds of non-germane things is why I don't call myself atheist when people ask.  I say "I don't believe in God." 

There are plenty of ethical systems that don't require a God.  I would, in fact, posit that no ethical system requires a God.  You may have heard the Euthyphro Dilemma:  In short, is goodness good because God said so, or does God say goodness is good because it is? 

In other words, is moral goodness objective, or is it defined by God?  If the former, what did God do to determine these objective truths and why can't I do the same thing (Thus finding morality without God)?  If the latter, goodness is contingent on the character of God and subjective.  When you base your morality on this God, you're basing your morality subjectively.  Everyone's morality is subjective, theists included.

[bucket]

A more apt definition would be "lack of belief in a god". Traditional Buddhism is an atheist religion; even though there are concepts like an eternal soul and an afterlife, there is no omnipotent creator.

[Creaca]

Will accepting there us a deity for no reason make you any happier?

Well, it did, for a lot of people. The 10 commandments (give or take a few) are pretty basic to a functioning society. Having an all-powerful, all-knowing police force that can hunt you even after you died helps keeping crime levels down as well.

Commandments, directly from the bible verses in Exodus:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

20 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 “I am the Lord thy God, who have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them; for I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me,
6 and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work;
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. In it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates.
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
13 “Thou shalt not kill.
14 “Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 “Thou shalt not steal.
16 “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
17 “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor’s.”

Let's break these down on how they relate to a healthy functioning society.

1. Thou Shalt have no other gods before me.

Well, that eliminates any freedom of religion. Looks like the writers of the constitution where a little iffy on this commandment too.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

And that eliminates all artwork of any kind. Looks like this one would be a real issue for Free Speech laws in a society.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

More free speech problems, still nothing that would really form or lead a society together in a meaningful way.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The punishment for this one is covered elsewhere in the bible. DEATH. I'm certain killing people for working on Sunday is a good way to have a healthy society form.

5. Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Here we go! At number 5 and finally we find something that might be worthwhile. Of course, I'm not sure ~every~ father and mother should be unilaterally be honored. There are some real abusive conniving people out there who are absolute poison for their children.

God really should have maybe made this one more than a sentence long, it's a great though, but with no real substance.

6. Thou shalt not kill.
Here we go! This is certainly good for society!

 I mean, god himself doesn't follow it, what with the world wide floods, plagues, sending angels to kill people in their sleep, or ordering people to kill. Still, a good thought!

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Okay, this ones moving away from the society thing again. I mean, you certainly should break a marriage contract with someone, that's bad.  But really, this is going into the top 10 commandments from god? How about no pedophilia? Or no rape at all for that matter?

8. Thou shalt not steal.

I'm down with this, stealing is bad, disrupts any health society. Good commandment, I've got no issues with this one.

9.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Lying is pretty bad.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor’s.

Don't want other peoples things. I don't see the issue with wanting someones stuff so long as you don't steal it. More over, this law seems more like a crime of thought, than a crime of deed. Damning people for their thoughts seems pretty darn immoral.






So, out of all of them, the only ones that seem to directly relate to society are "Don't Kill, Don't Steal, Don't Lie". Gee, thank god 10 commandments where sent down to tell us that. I'm sure people would never figure out thatkilling, stealing, and lying are bad without those inspired tablets.

[Siquo]

Let's break these down on how they relate to a healthy functioning society.

And let me point out the obvious flaws of your interpretation

1. Thou Shalt have no other gods before me.
Well, that eliminates any freedom of religion. Looks like the writers of the constitution where a little iffy on this commandment too.

Yeah, agreed that this one is not really a nice one. Was a first step towards monotheism, though, as before that all gods were possible, and the concept of false god was pretty vague. Not too positive.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
And that eliminates all artwork of any kind. Looks like this one would be a real issue for Free Speech laws in a society.

No, this one is specifically about images of God, gods, or demons (in heaven above and in (below) the earth). Islam is still doing this right, christians have messed this one up. God is an abstract, and not a "guy with a beard in the clouds". Specifically, a white guy. This one prevents A. imagining a God that plays favourites based on appearance (racism) and B. stops people from worshipping statues instead of an abstract (oh hi christians with Jesus imagery, you screwed that up as well (OTOH the muslims taking this too far aren't too positive either)). Not too positive, but not as negative as you make it to be.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.
More free speech problems, still nothing that would really form or lead a society together in a meaningful way.

Another "respect God" law. Necessary for the religion aspect, not too positive, agreed. Up until now it's mostly just "respect the police" laws, without anything that makes the police in question protect you.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The punishment for this one is covered elsewhere in the bible. DEATH. I'm certain killing people for working on Sunday is a good way to have a healthy society form.

Now this one was groundbreaking. Up until now, working 7 days a week was normal, this is also in a time of slavery, and people working their ass off from sun up till sun down, have-nots being exploited by the haves etc. Magically inventing a day off for everyone is a brilliant find. Telling people you should use this day for introspection and communal gatherings is also a good move. The rise of worker unions has nothing on just this one rule.
Very positive, maybe outdated.

5. Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
Here we go! At number 5 and finally we find something that might be worthwhile. Of course, I'm not sure ~every~ father and mother should be unilaterally be honored. There are some real abusive conniving people out there who are absolute poison for their children. God really should have maybe made this one more than a sentence long, it's a great though, but with no real substance.

Yep, I've seen examples that do not warrant "honouring", but honouring your elders (not limited to parents) is generally a good thing. Having grandparents around drastically lengthened our life expectations, by the way. Very positive.

6. Thou shalt not kill.
Here we go! This is certainly good for society!
I mean, god himself doesn't follow it, what with the world wide floods, plagues, sending angels to kill people in their sleep, or ordering people to kill. Still, a good thought!

Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi All of them say "you", not "we"
Very positive.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Okay, this ones moving away from the society thing again. I mean, you certainly should break a marriage contract with someone, that's bad.  But really, this is going into the top 10 commandments from god? How about no pedophilia? Or no rape at all for that matter?

This one is actually feministic. Limiting sex to marriage guarantees that as a woman, you won't be left with a child and a father who runs away. This one is protecting the mothers, and even though the "family being the cornerstone of civilisation"-line is very cliched, that does not make it any less true.
Very positive.

8. Thou shalt not steal.
I'm down with this, stealing is bad, disrupts any health society. Good commandment, I've got no issues with this one.

Yep, the concept and protection of ownership is quite important in any society greater than a handful of people. (Although it messes a lot of stuff up as well)
Positive.

9.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Lying is pretty bad.

This one is pretty important if you want any type of decent justice system, and specifically targets perjury. Very positive.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor’s.
Don't want other peoples things. I don't see the issue with wanting someones stuff so long as you don't steal it. More over, this law seems more like a crime of thought, than a crime of deed. Damning people for their thoughts seems pretty darn immoral.

Jealousy is a great source of evil. Pushing away thoughts like that is a first step in not acting on them. Thought police might not be nice, but it works.
Still positive.

So, out of all of them, the only ones that seem to directly relate to society are "Don't Kill, Don't Steal, Don't Lie". Gee, thank god 10 commandments where sent down to tell us that. I'm sure people would never figure out thatkilling, stealing, and lying are bad without those inspired tablets.

Well, you have to see it in the time they were made. Kings and powerful men could kill with impunity. Having actual divine laws, suddenly means that they too were subject to these laws. They needed to be simple, succinct, and to the point for them to "stick" and be memorable to everyone (do you know all the laws of your country? Exactly).

[Leafsnail]

a·the·ism/ˈāTHēˌizəm/Noun: The theory or belief that God does not exist.

No.  Don't do this.

[Supercharazad]

I have an interesting line of thought. Though many athiests (not all) scoff at theists for their faith on a higher being, surely they also have their own faith that there is *not* a higher being, and therefore are just as "bad"?

[Leafsnail]

No.  Don't do this.

[kaijyuu]

I think Leaf is saying "don't start a semantics argument about the difference between atheism and agnosticism please."