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[SealyStar]

I'd probably be classified as an agnostic, maybe an ignostic. I'm going to avoid posting on this thread a lot, mainly because it would be hypocritical. I've fallen into the middle path, so to speak, because I'm fucking tired of both atheists and religious people shoving their beliefs down their throat, then claiming either "science" or "faith" proves that only their viewpoint, and no other, can possibly be true. There is no way to scientifically prove or disprove the existence of a god or similar figure, despite the shit I hear on both sides, so why the fuck should I care?

Hide! It's a fundi agnostic! He may or may not have a bomb-belt!

Eh, that's probably how you see me, but seriously, I'm easily pissed off.

[Siquo]

Hide! It's a fundi agnostic! He may or may not have a bomb-belt!

Eh, that's probably how you see me, but seriously, I'm easily pissed off.

Don't kill me! I'm 99% in agreement with you!

[Hiiri]

I've never been a fan of "karmic balance" moral systems. If you only do stuff in the hopes of getting things in return, I really don't find that at all worthy of respect.

I've got news for you, everything you do is for your own good. If an action doesn't directly or indirectly benefit you, you wouldn't do it.

There are plenty of situations too where you have the opportunity to extend an altruistic hand, but know for certain you'll get absolutely squat in return.

Such as?

There is no way to scientifically prove or disprove the existence of a god or similar figure, despite the shit I hear on both sides, so why the fuck should I care?

Oh hey, I'm easily pissed off too. When the fuck did you hear an atheist claim to be able to disprove gods? Or is this just something you heard the other people say?

[SealyStar]

Oh hey, I'm easily pissed off too. When the fuck did you hear an atheist claim to be able to disprove gods? Or is this just something you heard the other people say?

Oh, I've heard this one a lot. If you haven't, I'm expressing solidarity with you. I've met atheists who constantly quip about "scientific proof" against the existence of god. I understand not all atheists are like this, but most I've met are.

[Eagle_eye]

I've never been a fan of "karmic balance" moral systems. If you only do stuff in the hopes of getting things in return, I really don't find that at all worthy of respect.

I've got news for you, everything you do is for your own good. If an action doesn't directly or indirectly benefit you, you wouldn't do it.

Oh? What about organ donors? Is getting an organ cut out really worth that warm fuzzy feeling? Or in the case of heart/lungs/other essential organs, you'll be dead. It will have absolutely no effect on you, so why do people do it? And teachers? They're horribly paid, in the US at least, but they spend the same amount of time getting an education as many much higher paying jobs.

[Eagle_eye]

Oh hey, I'm easily pissed off too. When the fuck did you hear an atheist claim to be able to disprove gods? Or is this just something you heard the other people say?

Oh, I've heard this one a lot. If you haven't, I'm expressing solidarity with you. I've met atheists who constantly quip about "scientific proof" against the existence of god. I understand not all atheists are like this, but most I've met are.

I've never met anyone who stated anything of the sort. Atheists assume god doesn't exist because they don't see any valid evidence. It's Russel's Teapot: just because you don't know it's not there doesn't mean believing it's there is a logical thing to do.

[Hiiri]

Oh? What about organ donors? Is getting an organ cut out really worth that warm fuzzy feeling? Or in the case of heart/lungs/other essential organs, you'll be dead. It will have absolutely no effect on you, so why do people do it?

Would you rather live in a world where people donate organs or in a world where people do not? In which world would you feel more safe/comfortable living in? I'd say the former. Naturally, if we wish to live in that world, we must donate organs.

Heart/lung transplant isn't all that different. Also, if you're dying, your death might not be as emotionally painful to you, knowing the pieces of your body will save another life. Again, a selfish motivation to do it.
(Of course, I cannot know the true motivations of people, but I'm willing to say everything has a selfish cause in the end.)

Empathy isn't just for some "warm fuzzy feeling", it's a way to make the world a better place for you to live in.

[Eagle_eye]

My donating organs won't help me in any way. The act of donating organs isn't going to inspire anyone else to do it. You could just as easily pretend you were signed up to donate organs when you die and tell other people they should too. Believe it or not, there are people who simply care about others.

[Leafsnail]

I've never been a fan of "karmic balance" moral systems. If you only do stuff in the hopes of getting things in return, I really don't find that at all worthy of respect. There are plenty of situations too where you have the opportunity to extend an altruistic hand, but know for certain you'll get absolutely squat in return. Any karmic justification falls flat in encouraging performing the act of altruism.

I see a much bigger problem with believing in that kind of system: it means you can dismiss people who are worse off than you as bad people who deserve their lot in life.  It strikes me as a general problem with believing in an interventive god - justifying the world as it is because hey, that's clearly how god wanted it.

[Hiiri]

My donating organs won't help me in any way. The act of donating organs isn't going to inspire anyone else to do it. You could just as easily pretend you were signed up to donate organs when you die and tell other people they should too. Believe it or not, there are people who simply care about others.

Not helping you in any way? Think again. If your organs failed tomorrow, where would you find replacements? In society in which people donate organs, or the one where people do not?

It's not about inspiration, it's an act of solidarity. Treat people as you wish to be treated yourself. Believe it or not, I care about people too. I just acknowledge that in the end it originates from our selfish desires.

[Eagle_eye]

Donating your organs isn't selfish at all. If everyone believed you had donated, it would get you the same benefit as donating, without any of the downsides. It's basically the Prisoner's Dilemma: The best outcome for the individual is always to be selfish, but the best outcome overall is to be altruistic. Other people will still be altruistic or not regardless of what you do, so if you're doing everything for selfish reasons, there's no reason for altruism.

[Grek]

So, Eagle_eye? Do you tell people that you've signed up for organ donation?

If not, why haven't you? If it's so clear cut that the best option regarding organ donation is to lie and say you donate while secretly refusing, it should be something that you've already put into practice.

If so, how do you deal with the guilty pangs from lying to your friends and family? I assure you that most people would be uncomfortable lying about something like this, even if you personally aren't.

Note that this isn't meant as a personal attack; answering the relevant question here will probably explain to you why (most) people that want the social kuddos and warm fuzzy feeling of donating organs actually become organ donors instead of just pretending to.

[Eagle_eye]

Well, I certainly will sign up to have my organs donated at death once I'm no longer a minor.  As for the lying part, my point was that that was what someone acting out of purely selfish motivation would do, not the best option.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You're both wrong. Altruistic behavior like organ donation does not arise from selfish desires, nor is it purely selfless. Humans are strongly reinforced, both socially and evolutionarily, to engage in actions which help our society. Society is a vital necessity for the survival of our species, humans just do not do well on our own.

Let us say we have ten hunters. They have about a 50% chance of getting a kill on any particular day, and that is a very generous probability for hunting.

If the hunters all act individually, five of them will probably go hungry on any given day, and every once in a while all of them might. Particularly unlucky ones will end up starving to death. That is not good for the continuation of our species.

If the hunters all act collectively, the odds of any of them going hungry on any given day is very low, as even if plenty of them fail usually at least one will succeed and bring back food. The chance of death by starvation is nearly eliminated. This is good for the continuation of our species.

Thus, the lone wolf hunters die and the social hunters survive to reproduce, creating an evolutionary advantage for altruistic and social behavior.

[Grek]

That's a selfish motivation, though - you're cooperating with the other hunters in order to get food more reliably and prevent yourself from starving.