Topic: Bridging the great divide. (Read 4200 times)

Canadark · « **on:** July 09, 2012, 05:35:08 pm »

Well, it has been a few years since I last played dwarf fortress or visited the forum and I have to say that the changes to the gave are amazing. Last time I fired it up we still didn't have caves and the military management page didn't require a degree from MIT to make sense (I jest, but in all honesty I probably should have made an effort to understand it BEFORE I was under siege). Everything from the necromancers to the evil bioms to the caverns show an incredible improvement over previous versions of the game. I know that for those who have been updating constantly, changes seem incremental but when you go a few years without playing it feels like a new and better game altogether. Well done Dr. Toad.

Anyways, so, I accidently spawned a map with two sprawling continents (I never did take the time to understand how to engineer worlds according to custom parameters. The great thing about this map is that the continents at their most narrow point are separated by an area of ocean that can actually be encompassed within a 4x4 map. To make things better, one side is home to elves, humans, and dwarfs while the other includes all of the above in addition to goblins. My plan is to build a large bridge and inhabit it as an above-ground and below-water fortress. I am modeling the idea off of The Twins, the stronghold of House Frey from 'A Song of Fire and Ice'.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I would like to move the towers further out into the ocean itself, and I am wondering if anybody has ideas about how I can build a tower that extends down to the ocean floor. As I understand it, cave-ins destroy constructed walls, so constructing and then dropping huge pillars down wouldn't work. One idea I had was to cast them out of obsidian and then drop them into the ocean; which could offer other benefits, such as allowing me to engrave the walls and also scoring me major dwarf-ness points. That being said I would like to be able to accomplish it in a reasonable amount of time.

Also, will the goblins ever appear from the wrong side of the ocean, i.e. the area that isn't regarded as being accessible to them?

Edit:

Here are the worldgen parameters:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Xenos · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2012, 05:40:39 pm »

Quote from: Canadark on July 09, 2012, 05:35:08 pm

Well, it has been a few years since I last played dwarf fortress or visited the forum and I have to say that the changes to the gave are amazing. Last time I fired it up we still didn't have caves and the military management page didn't require a degree from MIT to make sense (I jest, but in all honesty I probably should have made an effort to understand it BEFORE I was under siege). Everything from the necromancers to the evil bioms to the caverns show an incredible improvement over previous versions of the game. I know that for those who have been updating constantly, changes seem incremental but when you go a few years without playing it feels like a new and better game altogether. Well done Dr. Toad.

Anyways, so, I accidently spawned a map with two sprawling continents (I never did take the time to understand how to engineer worlds according to custom parameters. The great thing about this map is that the continents at their most narrow point are separated by an area of ocean that can actually be encompassed within a 4x4 map. To make things better, one side is home to elves, humans, and dwarfs while the other includes all of the above in addition to goblins. My plan is to build a large bridge and inhabit it as an above-ground and below-water fortress. I am modeling the idea off of The Twins, the stronghold of House Frey from 'A Song of Fire and Ice'.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMUnYnYCSe8

I would like to move the towers further out into the ocean itself, and I am wondering if anybody has ideas about how I can build a tower that extends down to the ocean floor. As I understand it, cave-ins destroy constructed walls, so constructing and then dropping huge pillars down wouldn't work. One idea I had was to cast them out of obsidian and then drop them into the ocean; which could offer other benefits, such as allowing me to engrave the walls and also scoring me major dwarf-ness points. That being said I would like to be able to accomplish it in a reasonable amount of time.

Also, will the goblins ever appear from the wrong side of the ocean, i.e. the area that isn't regarded as being accessible to them?

Either casting the towers from obsidian, letting the ocean freeze and then speed build walls, or draining the ocean into an aquifer (or boiling it away with some bins of burning lignite) seems the best bet for you. I recommend either casting or aquifer draining personally.

krenshala · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2012, 07:26:35 pm »

In theory you could use lots of pumps to create a Mosus Effect as well. Magma and controlled cave-ins will be the most effective long term solution, however.

Are you planning to start on one side, then build cross? If so, you could get a magma pump-stack going and pipe it out to create your obsidian blocks in the width you need.

Canadark · « **Reply #3 on:** July 09, 2012, 08:32:53 pm »

I was thinking of building a giant mold up in the air and filling it with magma and water, one layer at a time, until the mold is full. Then I'll drop the entire block. The mold will disintegrate and the obsidian core will land at the bottom in what I'm sure will be the biggest ~~fps crash/snafu~~ title wave I've ever pulled off.

From what I see in the wiki, minecarts could be pretty useful for moving magma. I've never done anything with them before but they sound like a much less complicated way of working it.

krenshala · « **Reply #4 on:** July 09, 2012, 09:39:53 pm »

How much magma is necessary to create an obsidian block?

Can you drop magma into water and reliably get blocks that fall? (I know dropping water into magma works, but I don't recall hearing if it works the other way.)

Do open floodgates prevent cave-ins? Do floodgates work when placed below the water/magma you want to hold? (I'm thinking build a block of floodgates set to open via lever, dropping magma into the ocean to make your blocks, that then fall to the ocean floor.)

Were you planning to keep it simple, and just make a solid, Great Wall of Bridge, or fancy and go for arches and stuff like you'd expect to see in a big bridge? Both are megaproject worthy, but one is a bit more epic than the other.

Damn, now I'm wondering how well I could do with this idea.

I've barely time to play my own (normal) fortress, I doubt I can do more than speculate.

Talion · « **Reply #5 on:** July 09, 2012, 11:30:07 pm »

You can indeed drop magma into water to get obsidian. I've created ocean platforms before with this method in an earlier version. There are issues if you drop large quantities of magma however because pockets can develop as a result of the ocean floor being uneven.

Generally it is best to drop one level of magma at a time. This reduces the amount of magma you need to build up before beginning construction and allows you to monitor the progress of the foundations and fix any problems that come up. It also puts less of a load on the fps provided you aren't having any pump based fps issues.

There have been bridges built across continents before. I have a feeling that after the bridge is built and the fortress is abandoned the goblins will be considered to have access to the other continent. As to if they'll appear on the wrong side before that point, I can't say. This is from memory so I may be misremembering.

I've yet to test magma hauling with mine carts so I can't help with that aspect.
Presumably it would be possible to build logic to adjust the drop point. This might be useful when filling in the initial layer to even it out but after that it probably wouldn't add much.

Panando · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2012, 03:04:36 am »

I think it would work to construct a 1z deep magma reservoir above the sea with a retracting bridge floor, drop one load of magma at a time. When a tile of magma hits a tile of water, it creates obsidian extremely cleanly and I would think there wouldn't be any water-surge, as an equal amount of water is destroyed by the casting as is displaced by the obsidian.

miauw62 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 10, 2012, 04:09:41 am »

Quote from: Canadark on July 09, 2012, 08:32:53 pm

I was thinking of building a giant mold up in the air and filling it with magma and water, one layer at a time, until the mold is full. Then I'll drop the entire block. The mold will disintegrate and the obsidian core will land at the bottom in what I'm sure will be the biggest ~~fps crash/snafu~~ title wave I've ever pulled off.

From what I see in the wiki, minecarts could be pretty useful for moving magma. I've never done anything with them before but they sound like a much less complicated way of working it.

Except that i *think* that dwarves pushing carts with magma *may* get their fingers (and their whole body, for that matter) burned.
Not sure tough.

Xenos · « **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2012, 10:11:52 am »

Quote from: miauw62 on July 10, 2012, 04:09:41 am

Quote from: Canadark on July 09, 2012, 08:32:53 pm
I was thinking of building a giant mold up in the air and filling it with magma and water, one layer at a time, until the mold is full. Then I'll drop the entire block. The mold will disintegrate and the obsidian core will land at the bottom in what I'm sure will be the biggest ~~fps crash/snafu~~ title wave I've ever pulled off.

From what I see in the wiki, minecarts could be pretty useful for moving magma. I've never done anything with them before but they sound like a much less complicated way of working it.

Except that i *think* that dwarves pushing carts with magma *may* get their fingers (and their whole body, for that matter) burned.
Not sure tough.

They don't get burned from guiding carts, only from hauling carts off a track to a stockpile. That can be fixed with wheelbarrows though...

slink · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2012, 12:09:21 pm »

It sounds fascinating. Would it be possible for us to get the world generation parameters? *hopeful look*

Canadark · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2012, 09:01:27 pm »

I added the worldgen param to the op (I think this is what you were looking for)

Does anybody have experience moving magma to the surface? It seems to me that doing it with a pump stack would be difficult given all the magma-safe materials it requires.

crazysheep · « **Reply #11 on:** July 10, 2012, 09:04:42 pm »

Quote from: Canadark on July 10, 2012, 09:01:27 pm

I added the worldgen param to the op (I think this is what you were looking for)

Does anybody have experience moving magma to the surface? It seems to me that doing it with a pump stack would be difficult given all the magma-safe materials it requires.

I've been moving magma with pump stacks for some time lol. If you have sand, make glass pump components, they're magma safe. Otherwise, order tonnes of sand from the liaison.

Panando · « **Reply #12 on:** July 10, 2012, 09:08:03 pm »

Quote from: Canadark on July 10, 2012, 09:01:27 pm

I added the worldgen param to the op (I think this is what you were looking for)

Does anybody have experience moving magma to the surface? It seems to me that doing it with a pump stack would be difficult given all the magma-safe materials it requires.

Green glass is magma safe. Green grass pipes and corkscrews, and some kind of magma safe rock (of the colour you want the pumps to be

) is usually the way to go. Not all embarks have sand though.
Barring sand, you need to use metal. Iron is magma safe and the best choice. You can use copper, lead, silver etc but the pumps will melt if magma ever gets on the passable tile, but as long as that doesn't happen (as it shouldn't in a conventional pump-stack) these non-magma safe metals will pump magma just fine, that's a bug of course (as is made clear by magma forges requiring magma safe materials) but the game will let you do it

.

crazysheep · « **Reply #13 on:** July 10, 2012, 09:14:05 pm »

Quote from: Panando on July 10, 2012, 09:08:03 pm

Green grass pipes and corkscrews

These are definitely not magma-safe

Replica · « **Reply #14 on:** July 10, 2012, 09:26:13 pm »

Are player built bridges actually taken into account as crossable land after your fortress perishes or what?

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Author Topic: Bridging the great divide. (Read 4200 times)

Canadark

Bridging the great divide.

Xenos

Re: Bridging the great divide.

krenshala

Re: Bridging the great divide.

Canadark

Re: Bridging the great divide.

krenshala

Re: Bridging the great divide.

Talion

Re: Bridging the great divide.

Panando

Re: Bridging the great divide.

miauw62

Re: Bridging the great divide.

Xenos

Re: Bridging the great divide.

slink

Re: Bridging the great divide.

Canadark

Re: Bridging the great divide.

crazysheep

Re: Bridging the great divide.

Panando

Re: Bridging the great divide.

crazysheep

Re: Bridging the great divide.

Replica

Re: Bridging the great divide.