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Author Topic: Open source Dwarf Fortress  (Read 16717 times)

Goron

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2012, 12:12:57 am »

OMG SOMEONE DOESN'T WORSHIP TOADY AS THE SOLE HUMAN CAPABLE OF EEVER CREATING ANYTHING EVER AND THINKS DF ISN'T GODS GIFT TO MAN AND PERFECT AND UNABLE TO EVER BE REIMPLEMENTED OMG OMG OMG.


...

Don't worry Marc, not everyone here is are fanboi sheep. Just ignore the people that have nothing better to do than hate on anyone that dares mention DF without first washing hands.

quinnr

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2012, 12:17:58 am »

OMG SOMEONE DOESN'T WORSHIP TOADY AS THE SOLE HUMAN CAPABLE OF EEVER CREATING ANYTHING EVER AND THINKS DF ISN'T GODS GIFT TO MAN AND PERFECT AND UNABLE TO EVER BE REIMPLEMENTED OMG OMG OMG.


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Don't worry Marc, not everyone here is are fanboi sheep. Just ignore the people that have nothing better to do than hate on anyone that dares mention DF without first washing hands.

I don't believe you have read this thread. People aren't saying that Toady is a god, and people aren't even saying that it wouldn't be possible to do it, for the most part. People are saying that this Marc person is quite underestimating the task of recreating DF, especially since the game is already free, particularly with his attitude that DF is not complex in the least, and that it would be quite easy to recreate. I don't even play DF much, but I recognize that you aren't going to be able to clone it, even given 3 years with a few dedicated developers (something a random open-source clone will likely not even have).

Not to mention that it is kinda rude to say that you are going to clone a game on that games official forum.
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Goron

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2012, 12:21:46 am »

OMG SOMEONE DOESN'T WORSHIP TOADY AS THE SOLE HUMAN CAPABLE OF EEVER CREATING ANYTHING EVER AND THINKS DF ISN'T GODS GIFT TO MAN AND PERFECT AND UNABLE TO EVER BE REIMPLEMENTED OMG OMG OMG.


...

Don't worry Marc, not everyone here is are fanboi sheep. Just ignore the people that have nothing better to do than hate on anyone that dares mention DF without first washing hands.

I don't believe you have read this thread. People aren't saying that Toady is a god, and people aren't even saying that it wouldn't be possible to do it, for the most part. People are saying that this Marc person is quite underestimating the task of recreating DF, especially since the game is already free, particularly with his attitude that DF is not complex in the least, and that it would be quite easy to recreate. I don't even play DF much, but I recognize that you aren't going to be able to clone it, even given 3 years with a few dedicated developers (something a random open-source clone will likely not even have).

Not to mention that it is kinda rude to say that you are going to clone a game on that games official forum.
Nah I know. I just find it amusing how hostile and asshat-like the responses are, though. I couldn't resist pointing out that irony.

And don't worry, I washed my hands before posting and said the daily DF prayer, so it's all good.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 12:23:52 am by Goron »
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Tellemurius

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2012, 12:32:03 am »

Open source works fine... LINUX exists. What it needs is leadership and passionate people working as the proper directed group to accomplish a clearly defined and delineated goal.
Well Linux also has uses in many markets and Linus himself said he didn't expected the popularity when he released the kernel.

MrWiggles

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2012, 12:34:55 am »

Didnt ToadyOne state there was like over 140k semi colons in the source?  It was during an interview a few years ago? and it was stated a loose measurement for how large DF source code is. It does suggest there something none trivial happening in all that, but I suppose if you were going for only presentation instead of having underlying simulations then it wouldnt be that complex. Like a shallow dwarf fortress.
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G-Flex

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2012, 01:10:59 am »

Open source works fine... LINUX exists.

Linux and Dwarf Fortress aren't remotely similar projects and do not have remotely similar needs. Linux development working just fine is proof that open-source development is appropriate for Linux, not that it's appropriate for this one weird niche videogame with peculiar-but-interesting sensibilities designed by a single man and his brother.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2012, 01:32:57 am »

OMG SOMEONE DOESN'T WORSHIP TOADY AS THE SOLE HUMAN CAPABLE OF EEVER CREATING ANYTHING EVER AND THINKS DF ISN'T GODS GIFT TO MAN AND PERFECT AND UNABLE TO EVER BE REIMPLEMENTED OMG OMG OMG.


...

Don't worry Marc, not everyone here is are fanboi sheep. Just ignore the people that have nothing better to do than hate on anyone that dares mention DF without first washing hands.

I don't believe you have read this thread. People aren't saying that Toady is a god, and people aren't even saying that it wouldn't be possible to do it, for the most part. People are saying that this Marc person is quite underestimating the task of recreating DF, especially since the game is already free, particularly with his attitude that DF is not complex in the least, and that it would be quite easy to recreate. I don't even play DF much, but I recognize that you aren't going to be able to clone it, even given 3 years with a few dedicated developers (something a random open-source clone will likely not even have).

Not to mention that it is kinda rude to say that you are going to clone a game on that games official forum.
Nah I know. I just find it amusing how hostile and asshat-like the responses are, though. I couldn't resist pointing out that irony.

And don't worry, I washed my hands before posting and said the daily DF prayer, so it's all good.

So after you get called on your bullshit you resort to the old "I'm so above this; I was just messing with you for my own amusement, haha!" line? Pretty much every asshat in this thread has been one of the people who jumped in to attack posters pointing out (rightfully) that it would be a much greater task than the OP was suggesting (or that the OP was being sort of dickish). I don't see any fanboys here (you might need to look in the upper boards for that, if you're going to bother trolling for responses), just the reasonable people and the people like you.

Incidentally, that word doesn't mean what you think it means.
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Darkmere

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2012, 02:24:28 am »

Open source works fine... LINUX exists.

Linux and Dwarf Fortress aren't remotely similar projects and do not have remotely similar needs. Linux development working just fine is proof that open-source development is appropriate for Linux, not that it's appropriate for this one weird niche videogame with peculiar-but-interesting sensibilities designed by a single man and his brother.

But we weren't talking about making DF itself open-sourced. The OP wanted something like DF but with cherry-picked features changed, and overall made more generic. I see no reason such a project would fail due to complexity issues... because LINUX is an operating system and necessarily more complex than a game. And it works. Is there a specific reason you feel the framework, as described, couldn't be done? Or was that a "It's not DF, so it won't be DF" comment, when the premise is that this isn't actually DF on the table?
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burningpet

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2012, 02:39:53 am »

I just want to point out Goblin camp again for 2 reasons:

1) it is a testament how the main developer is extremely important and if he is not 100% devoted to the project, it will slowly but surely die.

2) If you want an open source DF like game and are a capable man - go help Goblin camp!
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PrimusRibbus

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2012, 02:48:29 am »

I've been active in OSS game and software development forums for about 10 years now, and on the majority of said forums there are people proposing open-source DF projects every 6 months or so. At this point I'm in "I'll believe it when I see it" mode.

I've been on the dev team of a couple of successful OSS projects and a LOT of projects that sounded great on paper, but failed miserably in execution. I'm no Linus Torvalds, but these tips might help you:

1.) Open Source Software is 90% about marketing: Convincing talented individuals to put uncompensated work into your project is magnitudes harder than making a sale. The #1 killer of open source projects, by a landslide, is leadership that is unable to sell other developers on the project's vision. The guy who critiqued your pitch was spot on.

Being the leader of an Open Source project is tough, and there are plenty of world class developers that don't have the people or business skills to pull it off (there's no shame in that). It's an extremely difficult balancing act between herding all the cats in the direction of the project's vision, but still being able to give up enough control to let talented developers make your project their own passion. Remember, a great developer can fork your project at any time and take your community with you.

2.) Consider not starting from scratch: The joy of open-source is that you can fork something similar, and borrow code and assets from a gigantic amount of projects with compatible licenses. Help me understand why you'd spend tons of time recreating the basic groundwork that other open-source DF-likes have created. Goblin Camp, in particular, seems like a great starting point: It's a very inactive project (so you can leverage the fork to attract restless members of the GC community), the code is clean (at least the last time I looked at the source), and it's already geared towards your stated goal (a pared-down DF-like).

On a side note: Goblin Camp's history also provides some great pointers on the pitfalls of open source development. In particular, it generated a huge amount of press and social media coverage, then squandered it by alienating many talented devs that volunteered to help with the project. There's no point in turning your pet project into a community-driven OSS project if you're not willing to compromise and work with contributors.

I really believe that Goblin Camp would've succeeded if the creator had been more willing to accept criticism, code, and assets. I had A LOT of other frustrations with the creator, but I'm not here to hate. Things got better after the Goons stopped dominating the GC IRC, but it was too little, too late.

3.) Put up or shut up: Most talented developers aren't looking to build your project for you; they either want to create their own project, or contribute to a worthy project. The burden of proof is on you when you say that DF's code isn't that complex; if that's the case, then there's no reason you shouldn't have some sort of tech demo to show.

David White attracted a strong dev team in the early days of Battle for Wesnoth by running under the philosophy that people will only participate in a OSS project if they see strong progress, and realistic ways that they can contribute bite-sized amounts of work. He did every part of the first few releases of BfW himself and it was NOT pretty. It did, however, very quickly attract people who looked at the project and said "Wow, this is promising and the dev is really hitting milestones! I see some places I could contribute."

The most famous example of BfW's early success was the artist fmunoz who saw that the concept was solid, and then decided that he could easily contribute vastly superior sprites to replace White's placeholders. Once the graphics overhaul took place, even more developers came on, and the rest is history.

4.) Create a Roadmap: Figure out what you want to accomplish with your project, then create a mission and milestones.

The reason why your statements about elements of the project being fairly easy were met with derision is because this has been said a million times before. I can't even count how many projects that I've seen pitched by guys with no programming experience who named-dropped engines and stated that it would be a cakewalk.

Create some realistic early milestones and meet them. Without doing that, I have no reason to assume that you aren't another "idea guy" who thinks that Open Source conjures projects out of thin air. If you illustrate in practice that your vision is straight-forward, then it will be much easier to convince people that their contributions actually matter.



As harsh as this post sounded, I do not mean to be offensive. I just wanted to try to bring more constructive criticism into the thread. Best of luck to you!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 03:00:05 am by PrimusRibbus »
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Robsoie

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2012, 03:21:45 am »

I have been using and continue to use in work many open source applications (blender, gimp and mypaint particularly) and follow from very close their development since a few years, and from that i agree 100% with everything PrimusRibbus wrote.

Games may be obviously a different genre in comparison to work applications, but still their development and requirements to stay developped are following the same ropes as an open source project.
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MasterFancyPants

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2012, 03:34:05 am »

I'm pretty sure Marc Remillard left.
Sad, but based on some of his posts I read through; he doesn't seem to know much about DF and I doubt this project would have gotten off the ground anyway.  :-\
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MrWiggles

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2012, 03:35:44 am »

According to his user profile, its 3:30am for him. So he might also be asleep.
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quinnr

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2012, 03:38:25 am »

According to his user profile, its 3:30am for him. So he might also be asleep.

Well, there's the first issue. Everyone knows that real programmers don't sleep.
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Sensei

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Re: Open source Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2012, 03:52:34 am »

According to his user profile, its 3:30am for him. So he might also be asleep.

Well, there's the first issue. Everyone knows that real programmers don't sleep.
Inb4 Marc comes back and takes that as serious criticism.
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