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[moogmg]

I was looking at Morrowind  the other day and noticed how it had a very large selection of spells, then I looked at the spells in Skyrim.  I noticed that while Skyrim has a lot of spells that it still is noticeably small when compared to Morrowind. Now, this makes sense for the most part because Morrowind has spells that can be used in one specific situation or for the most part are useless: Like,Lock,Find Key,that super jump scroll spell that kills you, etc. Not to mention that many players will only use a few specific spells.  So, for a design point it makes perfect sense. Yet, I like having clutter of spells as it adds to the atmosphere, and sometime its nice to have spells treated like multi-use tools instead of strictly combat weapons. I think of Arx Fatalis which had several fairly useless spells. The biggest was probably ignite which  started a small fire, now ignite has uses but they were rare. yet, it did two things.
1.IT created an image of magic that wasn't just for combat.
2.One of the symbols used to cast ignite was used in several other fire based spells which I felt added "weight" to the magic system.   

so, how do you feel all about this?


 

[Frumple]

Just give a way to organize or cull your spell access method (whatever that may be). Then you can splatter spells about like an eldritch bukkakefest and the major problem with that is solved.

But yeah, I like my niche, one off, world-building bits of magic and other special abilities. Don't really give a shit if they're mostly (or even completely!) useless. It's just nice to have, fleshes things out. Generally bloat from a gameplay perspective but, y'know what? I like me some g'damn bloat, especially if it's shiny and/or interesting.

[PrimusRibbus]

Kill two birds with one stone: Have more scenarios in games where you can solve a problem multiple ways, and incorporate spells as some of the solutions.

I really hate it when games give you a spell that is literally only used once in a hardcoded scenario. I also hate it when games make that hardcoded spell the only possible way to get past an area.

A good example of a system I liked was in the old CRPG Realmz. For all its faults (and it had a lot of them), Realmz did encounters well. For example, at the beginning of the first scenario, there was a point where you had to get a dog out of a well. The game brought up a screen where you could use any feat your characters had, use items you possessed, or cast spells you had. There were a number of ways you could get the dog out successfully: Having a character with high Acrobatics go in well, using a rope if you had purchased it from a store, using the Freefall spell if you had it, etc.

TL;DR: Fix lazy scenario design and you fix bad spell design too.

[moogmg]

Kill two birds with one stone: Have more scenarios in games where you can solve a problem multiple ways, and incorporate spells as some of the solutions.

I really hate it when games give you a spell that is literally only used once in a hardcoded scenario. I also hate it when games make that hardcoded spell the only possible way to get past an area.

A good example of a system I liked was in the old CRPG Realmz. For all its faults (and it had a lot of them), Realmz did encounters well. For example, at the beginning of the first scenario, there was a point where you had to get a dog out of a well. The game brought up a screen where you could use any feat your characters had, use items you possessed, or cast spells you had. There were a number of ways you could get the dog out successfully: Having a character with high Acrobatics go in well, using a rope if you had purchased it from a store, using the Freefall spell if you had it, etc.

TL;DR: Fix lazy scenario design and you fix bad spell design too.

true, that would be a nice solution.

[LoSboccacc]

that super jump scroll spell that kills you

just cast it again before landing 

[moogmg]

that super jump scroll spell that kills you

just cast it again before landing 

Don't roll your virtual eyes at me  ,  I know what to do with it, but I doubt everyone who plays the game the first time without looking it up would.

[Jopax]

Yeah, that was one of the scariest things in the game.

'Ooooh shiny scrolls, lets test one.'
*uses scroll*

'Hmmm, nothing, perhaps if I jump?'

*WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*

*SPLAT*


In general, I too like a lot of spells, manily because it feels better, even if you don't use them all, hell Skyrim had a very small number of spells and yet even it had the problem of spells not being used (manily the illusion crap) which made it feel quite empty and half assed in the spell compartment.

Plus having a large number of spells is always good for emergent gameplay, using stuff in a new and strange way to great effect (that one video from WoW comes to mind where a dude attacks some other dudes and makes a run for this big mountain, he then jumps off (the idiots follow) before casting slowfall and laughing as they plummet to their deaths).

[sambojin]

There's only two type of spell systems I like. Either bloated ones or incredibly generic ones.

I like having uselss spells. Or rather, not useless, just sort of niche spells that have a very specific use, often revolving around a niche character build. One that you had to put a lot of effort into aquiring items for or taking the power-hit through half the game until it all came together, just so you have one of those cool, "rare", characters, amongst thousands of carbon copy cookie-cuttered trash.

I also like spells that sort of round out a game world. It's up to the devs to make them useful somehow. Not everything has to be game winning. Oh good, I can call dogs and make them my friends. Not big dogs, poodles. Happy nice ones. Cue the fluffy poodle army of doom! Regardless of how bad it is in gameplay. It might not be your main character, but you'll get a laugh out of it.

On the generic side, I love games where there's no set spells, you just construct your own. Legend and Worlds of Legend, Son of the Empire are my favourite examples of this. Buy runes, buy ingredients, then make whatever you please out of them. Some were there to get past specific "puzzles", but most were combat use. Fair enough, some of most used spells were "Missile, death, death, death, death, death", but it did give you the option to do whatever you wanted. The moment you could emulate a dragon potion, which understandably went out of stock pretty early on, made you feel like butchering all those armies was worthwhile.

I don't know why more games don't use something like this. More runes, more creativity and more lore behind it, but yeah, Legend had the best spell system ever. I'm also hoping someone does a "Syndicate" style spell system, with slider-boosters that do run out, but recharge. Pew-pew or big nuke? Wild-firing or accurate? It just depends on what you want the generic spell to do. But this isn't a suggestion thread, so.....

Specific bloat or customizable generality are the only good ways of doing spells in my opinion

[dennislp3]

Games just need to be aware of what spells are "useless" and find a way to scale or utilize them in a way that keeps them viable and useful in some way throughout a game.

[Neonivek]

There is this old game called Quest for Glory and it is one of the few games (of the only two I know) that combines point and click and RPG.

In it spells often only have ONE use, in fact... sometimes a spell seemingly had no use. Though that was fine it was all about using spells to come up with solutions (sometimes in very interesting ways)

[moogmg]

There is this old game called Quest for Glory and it is one of the few games (of the only two I know) that combines point and click and RPG.

In it spells often only have ONE use, in fact... sometimes a spell seemingly had no use. Though that was fine it was all about using spells to come up with solutions (sometimes in very interesting ways)

I'm not familiar, but is QFG a adventure game, that system sounds like every adventure game. You keep using different items until one works, in this case it is just a spell.

[Neonivek]

There is this old game called Quest for Glory and it is one of the few games (of the only two I know) that combines point and click and RPG.

In it spells often only have ONE use, in fact... sometimes a spell seemingly had no use. Though that was fine it was all about using spells to come up with solutions (sometimes in very interesting ways)

I'm not familiar, but is QFG a adventure game, that system sounds like every adventure game. You keep using different items until one works, in this case it is just a spell.

It is a point and click Adventure / RPG.

Also most of the solutions are obvious enough that you really shouldn't be using every spell. The games have often proven quite intuitive.

[alexandertnt]

IMO the main problem is moreso with unvarying spells. Such as fireball, fireball of +1 damage, fireball of +2 damage etc. When you get the next fireball of +N damage, its just not particularly fun. Nor is it fun to use. Practical, sure, but boring. Most spells fall into this trap, even if they have a different name. Many can be expressed as a simple Damage per Magic-unit, then its just finding the most efficient.

Another issue is over-categorisation. you have your contact spells, projectile spells, AOE spells etc. But then any new spells, in comparison to similar spells are no different. Sure, that spell may be called "Spell of Godlike Destruction and Revenge and General Awesomeness", it may have a super awesome animation of the world caving in on itself with lots of particles and VWOOSH sounds etc. But if all it is, is nothing more than an object that inhereted from a AOE base object, but with different damange stats and animation file, it heavily weakens the awesomeness effect. Now the Awesomeness spell just feels like your raggady generic AOE spell but with a fancy name and animation.

I like my Awesome But Impractical spells. Even if they are not the most "effecient" spells, they are the most fun to use. Particularly the ones that do bizzare things, whose function is clearly not simply the result of inheriting a base spell object and altering some statistics. Bonus points if they are also practical.

Something like the jump spell in Morrowind was hilarious. Some people may say its useless, but how do you define useless in the sense of the game. Not killing effectively? Not making the game easier somehow? Its a game, its supposed to be fun, so any spell that entertains me seems the oppisite of useless.

1.IT created an image of magic that wasn't just for combat.

This is a good point also. Its magic after all, it should be magical (rather than a boring tool). The means should be fun, not just the ends.

EDIT: Magicka. Magicka had plenty of pointless spells, but they were bloody great fun to use, especially in multiplayer. The mix-and-match system also made it feel much more dynamic. Screw up your spell and heal the enemy, "Accidently" palce OP mines around yourself and your team, blowing yourself and them outside the screen? Happen to have a shield at the time and somehow glitch-blasted yourself under the map? Absolute riot.

[Shadowlord]

Frequently people will find a way to make use of a spell even if it seems useless, unless the game's magic system provides no way to do emergent anything.

For example, in morrowind, I used the skill boost and jump spell effects to recreate Icarian flight in a reusable form as a magic item's enchantment, and then used it for long-range travel (using a slowfall spell as a parachute when I reached the top of my flight arc, before I could arc downward and splatter in the next couple seconds).

Skyrim dumbed it down to the point that everything you could do was obvious and simply the direct result of the spell you were casting (or shouting).

Magicka definitely did magic well.

[sambojin]

The most prime example I've ever seen of a useless and impractical spell would have to be from Ultima 6. You could get the spell armageddon, that killed everyone but you and Lord British. Why was it there? Absolutely no reason. You couldn't finish the game after it, you couldn't really do squat after it, but it was there.

And it was cool. It did have a purpose (finally the will'o'wisps had a background story), but it was more of a "reload last save now" type spell. The will'o'wisps didn't really do much for the rest of the series from memory either (unless they did it in part 9), but that one little conversation filled out more of a backstory than any other part of the series. Plus you could kill absolutely everyone, just because. Information is valuable, and damn powerful sometimes.

It was the best designed pointless spell ever to put in front of a hero that was there to save the day. The whole avatar thing didn't really ring true in Ultima 6 (and every episode after that), but they did make sure that you knew that you should do your best to not kill everyone and end the world. Even spells that pointless are cool. It was one of those objective lessons-: impractical, pointless, but you'd learn your lesson (and learn to save a bit more often before trying something stupid). Very cool.