Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Getting a puppy, internet advice  (Read 6792 times)

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2012, 11:45:25 am »

I'm confused here.
  • How is it possible to be allergic only to pitbulls?
  • Why is it that you can't adopt a young dog, but can get a young dog from a breeder?

Breeders are the evil. You should've picked up a dog from a shelter. :(

Not all of them.

Too many dogs about to be euthanized to put up with people breeding them for profit, imo.

Not to mention how genetically destructive most breeding is. Most dog breeds these days are pretty screwed-up genetically as a result of being bred for (at least) a century or two in order to conform to weird, arbitrary cosmetic standards. Given the history, purebred dogs are a concept that society in general really ought to stop caring much about.

Goddam it people, it took until IronyOwl to get an actual answer? And still this silliness of dodging the question to address an issue that was already addressed and excused? Doesn't matter where the puppy came from.

Actually, yes, it does matter.
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

forsaken1111

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • TTB Twitch
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2012, 11:46:10 am »

Place puppy on treadmill at least once a day. Not only does it exercise the puppy, it can be hilarious. My aunt's puppy loved running on the treadmill but never quite got the hang of running straight so it would sometimes just fall off. I think it liked that even more because it would pop back up and jump on the thing again. It would whine if we didn't let it run on the treadmill at least once a day.
was it sad that i read that as puppy mill?
It was the best kind of puppy mill. Sometimes it lost coordination so it would just roll a few times before flying off then get up all excited and jump on again. It loved the treadmill

Doesn't matter where the puppy came from.
Really? It doesn't matter? Cool...
Logged

Eagleon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Soundcloud
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2012, 01:28:01 pm »

I'm confused here.
  • How is it possible to be allergic only to pitbulls?
  • Why is it that you can't adopt a young dog, but can get a young dog from a breeder?
1: I'm not allergic to just pitbulls, I'm allergic to many dogs with some exceptions. Pitbulls happen to be one type, along with huskies (which I adore), labs, etc. Compounding this is that mutts often have whatever it is that does this.
2: Young dogs are snatched up quickly. We've tried working with the animal shelters to hold them temporarily, but the sad reality is that a) only one of us has a car, b) that person works long shifts most of the week, and c) shelters will do everything they can to get their dogs into homes, naturally, so someone that can only come by once or twice a week is low priority.
Breeders are the evil. You should've picked up a dog from a shelter. :(

Not all of them.

Too many dogs about to be euthanized to put up with people breeding them for profit, imo.

Not to mention how genetically destructive most breeding is. Most dog breeds these days are pretty screwed-up genetically as a result of being bred for (at least) a century or two in order to conform to weird, arbitrary cosmetic standards. Given the history, purebred dogs are a concept that society in general really ought to stop caring much about.

Goddam it people, it took until IronyOwl to get an actual answer? And still this silliness of dodging the question to address an issue that was already addressed and excused? Doesn't matter where the puppy came from.

Actually, yes, it does matter.
This is my fault, but there's breeders, and then there's puppy mills. The breeder in question owns a farm with horses, his dogs are working animals, and yes, he breeds them. I can't possibly blame him, extra money is important when you have a family. The sires seemed happy and friendly. The pen was clean, probably for show, but so were the puppies. The only issue I had was picking which of the two left we took home.

Sharpie (possibly temporary name, but I like it) is happily making a mess everywhere, as expected =P He's already starting to remember to pee on the mats, though. The neighbor's dogs are warming up to him, with no signs of aggression. He's ignoring the rawhide we got him, but he's gotten attached to chewing one of my staves, which is fine by me if it keeps him away from the cords.
Uhhh, from what I remember you generally don't want them to stay outside for too long at a time. Takes them like, six months or so to build up an immune system? Just be mindful of its weakness to disease. And be vigilant about training at around 3-4 months old. Habits formed here will really stick with the little guy.
Good advice, thank you.
Get a kitten. Less work, more cute.
Severely allergic :( Otherwise I'd love cats.
Logged
Agora: open-source, next-gen online discussions with formal outcomes!
Music, Ballpoint
Support 100% Emigration, Everyone Walking Around Confused Forever 2044

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2012, 03:26:43 am »

Quote
Most dog breeds these days are pretty screwed-up genetically as a result of being bred for (at least) a century or two in order to conform to weird, arbitrary cosmetic standards.

Oddly enough it is more recent then that. Many breeds today are mutants compared to how they were 200 years ago.

Pomeranians are the best example (I think that is the breed) who would be almost inrecognisable to their original breed.

---

Now you should decide if you want to crate train your dog or not.

I should state that as cruel and sad as it is... Crate training your dog is unfortunately really great. Dogs will do the most devious things while you are sleeping. It will mean you will listen to constant whinning when you are trying to sleep for a while (my dog was particularly bad. It can whine for hours and hours... I once tried to sleep through its whinning and woke up 4 hours later to its whinning)

Never use the crate as a punishment.
Logged

Lordinquisitor

  • Bay Watcher
  • Innocence proves nothing.
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2012, 11:52:37 am »

I`m sickened by the attitude towards breeders here.

My parents breed dogs (Dobermanns) since years. Around 30-40 years. They took over an old breed, one of the last, likely even the last, breed of dobermanns not bred for show and looks but for labor. (A side effect is that our dobermanns look better than any others, are more intelligent and live far longer than the odinary dobermann. Our dogs have won several championships.) My mother is a very educated dog teacher- Indeed, she even was invited to the K-9 in the USA once in order to teach them some new tricks and has probably forgotten more than most so called "experts" learn in a life time. One of her dear friends is that one guy who live(d) or still lives with wolves, being accepted as a member of their pack. His name always slips my mind, though.

So, i`m proud and frankly offended when people say "Breeders are the evil". How much do we earn per litter, one might ask. We demand 1000€ per puppy, which is just and fair for puppies hailing from such an, let`s call it exquisite, breed.

And how much do we earn? Almost nothing, perhaps one or two thousand € per litter of around 7 or 8 puppies. Feeding, ordering the papers, having them inspected by veterinarian, vaccinating them, providing free education for the dogs and their owners etc. costs much. My parents breed those dogs not for money, but for the sake of keeping the last good breed of dobermanns alive.

1000€ might sound much, but if we`d demand anything less we would actually lose money.

Now, serious breeders like my parents aren`t the problem. The people and unserious breeders are.

People don`t like to spend money. If they see a dog for 200€ and one for 1000€ they will almost always choose the 200€ dog. Which is funny, since they often end up paying more for that 200€ dog than they would have to pay for the 1000€ dog, since those will often have serious medical problems.. And usually only live half as long.

Yet people are idiots and want the cheap dogs. Many, many breeders are happy to provide those- They mostly hail from eastern europe and simply throw their dogs together, let them breed, harvest the litter and sell them out of the trunks of their cars. They often have 20-30 breeding "pairs" of dogs, living in horrible conditions and misery. The puppies are malnourished, mongrels without papers and neither vaccinated nor educated. It doesn`t matter how many die, the sheer numbers will grant them a profit.

In contrast: We have several breeding pairs but never more than two litters at the same time. Our dogs don`t live in kennels but in our very house. As i write this one of our dogs sleeps in our living room, while 5 members of our pack play in the garden.

The animal shelters are also another huge problem for us honest breeders. The dogs sheltered there are often those from such shady breeders- After all, only idiots (Or people in great hardships) would throw a 1000€ dog into a shelter.

We, for example, let every customer sign a agreement which prohibits them from giving our dogs to shelters- Instead we offer to take them back.

The sheer availability of dogs in shelters make it hard for breeders to sell their puppies- No one is able to sell them cheaper than shelters. Which forces the breeders to breed more and to demand less money for their dogs, resulting in even bigger "mass breeding" grounds. Which in turn leads to more dogs given to the shelters etc. It`s a circle, which keeps repeating itself because people want to be cheated.

And not to forget that dogs from shelters often have no education at all, and few people today are able to educated their dogs well.

Well, enough ramblings- Here are some tips:

1. Don`t play too much with your dog. Honestly, a dog doesn`t need as much excitement as many think. Grant him periods of long rest- Walking two, perhaps three, times a day with your dog would actually be enough. A dog being alone for 6-8 hours? Completely legit and no problem at all.

2. Only show him good things and he will recognize bad things on sight. Some of our dogs aren`t trained- We simply don`t have the time for it. Yet, by simply being reasonable the dogs learn far more than those of most other dog owners. They know what is good and what is evil. Our neighbor is laboring next to us with several workers each day, right when our young and still "untrained" dogs are playing in the garden. They don`t mind him or his workers at all. Once they acted funny, though. And lo and behold- One of the workers was a convict from a juvenile hall. (They lend those out to people who need workers.) and he fled that day. So, even if you don`t have the time to train the dog, show him only good and reasonable stuff and he will learn enough.

3. Get a good collar/leash. Many people turn up to the lessons of my mum with insufficient gear. Try to buy a collar made from steel rings- Though, thick, rings. A few months ago someone had lent me his collar.. It looked like a good one but the rings where too thin. They snapped during exercise with my dog. Now imagine that those could have snapped in a life or death situation..

4. Never panic; Never show insecurity. Be confident! If your dog acts up while on the leash or something don`t panic. Keep a cool head, say "NO!" or whatever command you want to use for such a situation and make a quick tug on the leash. Not hard, and don`t keep the leash taut- Be quick, earnest and firm and the dog will learn. No dog learns anything if you "dance around" with your leash or if you keep the leash taut shouting "no, no, no!".

When you pass another dog or something else on the street that might cause your dog to act up don`t panic. If you think "Oh my god, now there will be trouble!" your hound will sense that and will likely act up. Ignore the "danger" instead, walk by, pet your dog and show him that he doesn`t have to mind the other dogs or bikers. You have to be a leader, someone who shows the dog what to do. If you don`t he will try to be the leader- Which causes almost all of the problems people usually have with their dogs.

Wow, well, too exhausted to write more. If questions come up i`ll write more.


« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 11:56:35 am by Lordinquisitor »
Logged

forsaken1111

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • TTB Twitch
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2012, 12:44:50 pm »

I`m sickened by the attitude towards breeders here.
Yes, there are some legit and good dog breeders in the world, but there are plenty of breeders who simply want puppies for profit and don't give a damn about the dog's health or education.

The same could be said of anything. There are good politicians out there who care about their constituents, but plenty of them are corrupt and greedy. There are good companies out there who care about their customers, but many many are greedy and will do anything for a buck. I'm sorry if you are 'sickened' by the fact that many people don't trust dog breeders because of the terrible things that some of them do in the pursuit of profit but you'll have to accept that fact. Nobody here was saying they dislike your parents or your parent's dogs, we're commenting on what is a fairly common phenomenon.
Logged

Lordinquisitor

  • Bay Watcher
  • Innocence proves nothing.
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2012, 12:54:16 pm »

Ofc i know that. I just wanted to give the people a glimpse of the hard work associated with breeding good dogs. ;)

I even grant all those who are of such an opinion that most breeders are assholes or idiots. Or simply ignorant. Phew, the stories we could tell..

But i simply dislike all such absolute statements. That`s like saying that all lawyers are evil. (Well, most of them are.  :P )
Logged

Sergius

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2012, 01:15:00 pm »

I'm more sickened by the "well, I went to a dog breeder..." "how DARE you go to a dog breeder" responses.
Logged

forsaken1111

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • TTB Twitch
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2012, 01:22:10 pm »

I'm more sickened by the "well, I went to a dog breeder..." "how DARE you go to a dog breeder" responses.
yeah that is a bit melodramatic and uncalled for, agreed
Logged

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2012, 07:54:23 am »

I`m sickened by the attitude towards breeders here.
Yes, there are some legit and good dog breeders in the world, but there are plenty of breeders who simply want puppies for profit and don't give a damn about the dog's health or education.

Standards of breeding (and inbreeding) aside, there's also the simple fact that there are way, way too many dogs in shelters right now who need homes. Each dog bred commercially as a pet means another dog is stuck somewhere in a cage to be euthanized, and that's not really hyperbolic of me to say. Breeding dogs means you're adding to what is already a massive surplus, and the only possible justification for it I can see is if you're breeding a specific sort of work dog that can't really be found in sufficient quantity otherwise. Much the same could be said of cats.
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2012, 04:56:00 pm »

It is because, as with most things, dog breeders are currently being demonfied.

Most people who hate dog breeders are going by those articles and documentaries that are about those select dog breeders or "Pure Breed" breeders (it isn't entirely a Pure Breed breeder's fault... the requirement for a dog to be a pure breed is strict).

I still remember someone telling me about a puppy so overbred its brain was too small for its body. While I knew it wasn't indicative of ALL dog breeders, I can't hold everyone up to the same standard.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 05:05:06 pm by Neonivek »
Logged

Caz

  • Bay Watcher
  • [PREFSTRING:comforting whirs]
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2012, 10:06:26 am »

stuff

Thanks for the articulate and informative post. The world isn't black and white after all. :)
Logged

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2012, 12:55:13 pm »

It is because, as with most things, dog breeders are currently being demonfied.

Most people who hate dog breeders are going by those articles and documentaries that are about those select dog breeders or "Pure Breed" breeders (it isn't entirely a Pure Breed breeder's fault... the requirement for a dog to be a pure breed is strict).

Of course it's their fault for being in that business. If breed standards are harmful, and you know they're harmful, and you elect to breed those dogs anyway, that is entirely your fault. It might not be your fault that the industry became that way, but it's still your fault for partaking in it and supporting it. You don't get to say "but I'm just doing my job!" when it's a job they chose completely voluntarily.

Also, as I said, it's not just because of breed standards. It's also because dogs and cats, at least in the US, are suffering from overpopulation. There are all kinds of great cats and dogs sitting in shelters essentially waiting to die, or gone stray/feral, so every dog that someone breeds, and is bought instead of rescued, is another dog being euthanized. If you're buying a dog from a breeder instead of getting one from a shelter or rescue program, then that's one more dog being probably put down.

Obviously there are some cases where breeding programs might still make sense, such as when training dogs for very specific tasks where controlled breeding might be necessary; here I'm talking about pets, though, not work animals.
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

Lordinquisitor

  • Bay Watcher
  • Innocence proves nothing.
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2012, 03:08:51 pm »

Most dogs in shelters are mongrels, are sick and/or have been trained wrong. Besides you`ll never know what kind of backstory that dog has.

Like a friend of us, who took pity on a dog in a shelter. The dog seemed normal; Until he took him home and realized, in a painful way, that the dog had been trained to become aggressive upon experiencing positive feedback.

You know, it`s (almost) always better to get your dog from a breeder than from a shelter. Just because the dog won`t have a backstory yet and you can train him more to your liking.

You can`t really demand from people to punish themselves for the mistakes others make. (Careless Breeders and careless buyers who can`t handle a dog and give it to a shelter.)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 03:11:40 pm by Lordinquisitor »
Logged

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Getting a puppy, internet advice
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2012, 03:46:21 pm »

Most dogs in shelters are mongrels, are sick and/or have been trained wrong. Besides you`ll never know what kind of backstory that dog has.

  • Why would you care if it's a "mongrel"? Hell, mixed breed dogs are generally healthier than purebreds. You find a dog you like, breed aside. The best dogs I've known have mostly been mutts, and pretty much every purebred dog I've known has had significant health problems in excess of what would be normal for their age.
  • It's possible to get young dogs from shelters or other places where they aren't wanted.
  • Not all dogs are complete mysteries. Sometimes the history of a dog and its behavior are known beforehand.
  • I apologize if doing the right thing sometimes takes effort.

Quote
You can`t really demand from people to punish themselves for the mistakes others make. (Careless Breeders and careless buyers who can`t handle a dog and give it to a shelter.)

Breeding more dogs as pets when there is such an overpopulation of them is, in itself, a mistake. How do you think overpopulation happens?
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==
Pages: 1 [2] 3