Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22] 23 24 ... 30

Author Topic: Is America being "conservative" good?  (Read 26010 times)

Phmcw

  • Bay Watcher
  • Damn max 500 characters
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #315 on: June 20, 2012, 10:52:26 am »

Don't be sure of that, our army is really often sent oversea. Right now we have troops in Afganistan and lebanon, but we have been active in korea, rwanda, congo, ...
Most of those operation are done pretty silently, since we are not fond of the army, but done non the less.
Logged
Quote from: toady

In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #316 on: June 20, 2012, 02:24:00 pm »

Yeah, but it's mostly support role. In Lebanon, we run an hospital and remove mines, in Afghanistan we train the ANSF, in Rwanda we ran away when shit started hitting the fan...
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #317 on: June 20, 2012, 03:08:45 pm »

That's unfortunate. Higher foreign military presence in Rwanda might well have delayed or prevented the genocide.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Ancre

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #318 on: June 20, 2012, 07:24:42 pm »

Yeah the army is being sent all over the world, but it doesn't necessarily do any fighting there. Part of the US army's might is that it can start a fight anywhere on the globe, since it have troops ready for it everywhere.

And I don't think a higher military presence might have done better in Rwanda. There was a big ONU force (or another organization like that) that didn't do anything during the genocide. The soldiers were in their barracks while people were slaughtered nearby.
Logged

Ghills

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #319 on: June 20, 2012, 09:49:25 pm »

Rwanda was a population-level event, so it was lots of little groups everywhere, who aren't wearing uniforms and aren't abiding by the Geneva conventions or anything else really organized.  Armies don't deal very effectively with that kind of thing.  Police forces are generally a lot better at that kind of thing, but in Rwanda police were part of the problem.  I don't think an army could have done anything effective there.

On-topic, I think that most of the current conservative political platform is pretty sound, and exactly what we need after 6 decades of big government.  Unfortunately, politicians tend to ignore platforms after they get elected.  :-\   

The latest crop of Republicans being actual conservatives was a nice surprise. We could do with more of that, I think.  They at least got Congress moving, and put the fiscal discussions back on some kind of a fact-based ground. Just a start, but better than Obama-the-Ostrich.

Some of the conservative platform is bull, but so is a bunch of the liberal platform.  I think the big-government-healthcare-for-all has definitely been proved to be unsustainable in the long-run, though. Britain and Europe can't even keep it up, and they've got high US healthcare prices and US tax breaks subsidizing quite a lot of medical research. Also, medical tourism for basic healthcare happens in Europe from what I hear, as opposed to the medical tourism for plastic surgery that's popular in America.  That says a lot about how cost-effective and convenient medical care is in Europe to me, if people have to travel to get basic dentistry, etc.  Same thing with Canadians - they'll freely admit to coming to the US for specialist procedures, etc, that are available here but can't be gotten or can't be gotten without a lot of agonizing expense and waiting in Canada.

If the US switches to a more price-controlled model, I think a lot of medical care will simply become unavailable even for those who can afford it.  That's already happening to a great extent with Medicare, Medicaid, etc.  A lot of doctors simply won't take anyone on those plans anymore because they don't pay enough and the paperwork is so frustrating, even if the person can afford the premiums and co-pays. Supplemental private insurance plans are a big business for people on government plans.
Logged
I AM POINTY DEATH INCARNATE
Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
To summarize:
They do an epic face. If that fails, they beat said object to death with their beard.

Nadaka

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • http://www.nadaka.us
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #320 on: June 20, 2012, 09:56:39 pm »

Rwanda was a population-level event, so it was lots of little groups everywhere, who aren't wearing uniforms and aren't abiding by the Geneva conventions or anything else really organized.  Armies don't deal very effectively with that kind of thing.  Police forces are generally a lot better at that kind of thing, but in Rwanda police were part of the problem.  I don't think an army could have done anything effective there.

On-topic, I think that most of the current conservative political platform is pretty sound, and exactly what we need after 6 decades of big government.  Unfortunately, politicians tend to ignore platforms after they get elected.  :-\   

The latest crop of Republicans being actual conservatives was a nice surprise. We could do with more of that, I think.  They at least got Congress moving, and put the fiscal discussions back on some kind of a fact-based ground. Just a start, but better than Obama-the-Ostrich.

Some of the conservative platform is bull, but so is a bunch of the liberal platform.  I think the big-government-healthcare-for-all has definitely been proved to be unsustainable in the long-run, though. Britain and Europe can't even keep it up, and they've got high US healthcare prices and US tax breaks subsidizing quite a lot of medical research. Also, medical tourism for basic healthcare happens in Europe from what I hear, as opposed to the medical tourism for plastic surgery that's popular in America.  That says a lot about how cost-effective and convenient medical care is in Europe to me, if people have to travel to get basic dentistry, etc.  Same thing with Canadians - they'll freely admit to coming to the US for specialist procedures, etc, that are available here but can't be gotten or can't be gotten without a lot of agonizing expense and waiting in Canada.

If the US switches to a more price-controlled model, I think a lot of medical care will simply become unavailable even for those who can afford it.  That's already happening to a great extent with Medicare, Medicaid, etc.  A lot of doctors simply won't take anyone on those plans anymore because they don't pay enough and the paperwork is so frustrating, even if the person can afford the premiums and co-pays. Supplemental private insurance plans are a big business for people on government plans.

What the hell are you smoking?

Conservatives have always been for big government.

The latest crop, the tea baggers that came in 2010 have moved nothing forwards.

They have ground everything to a halt.

Their economics basically boil down to tax cuts for everyone, reducing revenue cures deficit, and fuck it all, jesus is coming! It is the very antithesis of fact based ground.

Healthcare for all was perfectly sustainable under the single payer public option. It was conservative cronyism that forced the public funding of private for profit insurance to turn on the profit tap and drain money from the people into the hands of those running the health denial services (insurance companies).
Logged
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

Bauglir

  • Bay Watcher
  • Let us make Good
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #321 on: June 20, 2012, 10:01:36 pm »

I agree with your first paragraph.

Everything else has been diametrically opposed to my own experience so I'm not really sure how to approach it. Let me preface my next few sentences though, by saying that I'm certain your claims are in good faith, it's just that they don't make sense to me. I will wholeheartedly agree that half-assed socialized medicine has been shown infeasible, I can say that much. The tea party has very much not been about small government, though, as far as I can tell - they've been about big government (in social issues only) and stalling any proposal with Democratic support. Those are goals that range from diametrically opposed to "small government" to entirely unrelated (though perhaps with coincidental correlation on some particular topics).
Logged
In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #322 on: June 20, 2012, 10:06:48 pm »

I don't know if socialized/nationalized healthcare is better than private healthcare, but I think we've seen through experience that private healthcare does not work. We are throwing away so much money on it. If I could get even a drop of the money the United States is wasting on healthcare right now I would be in a very fortunate position.

It's not like Americans aren't paying for each other's healthcare right now, we're just doing it in the most inefficient way possible.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Josephus

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Immortal Historian
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #323 on: June 20, 2012, 10:08:07 pm »

While we're here, can someone explain for me the ludicrous American reaction to any hint of the word 'socialism', as well as the conviction that small government = best government without any backing for the idea - as if it's simply a fundamental truth as opposed to one of several methods of governance?

I'm given to understand that the first case has more to do with the continuing effects of McCarthyism and the Red Scare, but the second - is that simply media-reinforced prejudice?
Logged
Solar Rangers: Suggestion Game in SPAAAAACE
RPG Interest Check Thread
i had the elves bring me two tigermen, although i forgot to let them out of the cage and they died : ( i was sad : (

Bauglir

  • Bay Watcher
  • Let us make Good
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #324 on: June 20, 2012, 10:16:52 pm »

I'm not really sure. I think it goes back to capitalism vs communism, as well. One of the reasons capitalism is "good" is because, in theory, it allows you to be free of arbitrary restrictions on your behavior imposed by a specific body. The Invisible Hand is, in theory, unprejudiced and a clever person can always come out ahead. Meanwhile "big government" imposing clunky regulations wastes money on administrative overhead and prevents legitimate avenues toward success under the guise of curbing abuses. Essentially, communism represents "big government" in the economy, and since communism is clearly evil, it's clear that "big government" in other areas must be evil, for the same reason.

Plus, people hate paying taxes because the benefits aren't directly associated with the payment so there's less psychological incentive to view it as anything other than theft. You spend your whole life in a society with highways, it just doesn't occur to you how much of your life is able to function because they exist. The cost of food, technology, and so on seems like a given, because you don't see the shipping markups, just the final price - and you never drive on the highways anyway, so why should you have to pay for them?
Logged
In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Criptfeind

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #325 on: June 20, 2012, 10:35:28 pm »

Because both sides see 'big government' as the government coming in and oppressing them, not allowing to let them make choices for themselves. Ether though not allowing them control over their lives or not allowing them to exert control over others lives. And nether side sees what they want the government to do to help them as being big, just reasonably sized. IE: Big implies too big.
Logged

Mrhappyface

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #326 on: June 20, 2012, 10:40:12 pm »

Remember the nolan chart, everybody. It isn't strictly  a horizontal scale.
Logged
This is Dwarf Fortress. Where torture, enslavement, and murder are not only tolerable hobbies, but considered dwarfdatory.

Criptfeind

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #327 on: June 20, 2012, 10:46:55 pm »

No. It's a square. But as American politics becomes more and more polarized everything not on the line becomes less and less important. Everything is pushed up into the corners.
Logged

Powder Miner

  • Bay Watcher
  • this avatar is years irrelevant again oh god oh f-
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #328 on: June 20, 2012, 11:42:01 pm »

What the hell are you smoking?
This shining example of civility here made me take offense.

Quote
Conservatives have always been for big government.
That's the exact opposite of what conservatives are for. What certain ones have done, and most definitely not the majority of them (that is, being big government) is a different thing.

Quote
The latest crop, the tea baggers
You sure know how not to insult people you disagree with! [/quote]that came in 2010 have moved nothing forwards.

They have ground everything to a halt.[/quote]
Hardly. The only grinding to a halt here is the fact that congress is opposing itself, and really in my opinion a fully liberal congress would be bad.

Quote
Their economics basically boil down to tax cuts for everyone,
Yep.
Quote
reducing revenue cures deficit
Like many others, you have the whole thing wrong. We don't believe that increasing taxes and then throwing it all out the window by spending a whole ton of money we don't have on stuff we most definitely do not need is good. We believe that cutting spending is good. In case you do not understand economics, revenue is the gain of money, and spending is the giving of money. They're about opposites. Understand?
Quote
, and fuck it all, jesus is coming!
Wow! Another person who believes that conservatives think that the state should be church based! News flash: Some of them do have religious morals in their decisions (but not outright religion, mind you), but no. They don't. In fact, when church and state are concerned, you often see liberals deciding to force the church to comply with the state, violaitng a constitutional law. does this mean that it is the liberal mission to HATE RELIGION FOREVER!!!???!!!! No. It doesn't. It's just a consequence of some of their (in my opinion) overreaching bills. (Many, many others would disagree with me.)
Quote
It is the very antithesis of fact based ground.
And as I have demonstrated, Nope.
Logged

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #329 on: June 20, 2012, 11:45:00 pm »

In fact, when church and state are concerned, you often see liberals deciding to force the church to comply with the state, violating a constitutional law.
Give me even one example.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22] 23 24 ... 30