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[IronyOwl]

As far as satisfaction goes, it all comes down to how difficult and how necessary a skill is for survival/prosperity. If the fortress is really counting on you to bring in that fish, then you get satisfaction for doing so. However, if that fish isn't vital for the survival of the fort (perhaps because there's a sustainable farm, or a surplus of food, or a reliable caravan to buy from) then the labor skill is going to start losing to the crafting skill; even if they are technically of equal value (i.e the crafted good buys as much fish as you could have caught yourself) the crafted good has the benefit of being special and unique, with that sense of ownership and pride that comes from making a thing.

In a general sense, players like feeling special and unique. In a small community trying to eke out a living on the edge of the wilderness, then being the guy who brings home the fish makes you an important member of society. In a big community where you're just one food-provider among many, that just makes you a plebeian.  By comparison, the artisan is special and important in both scenarios; a player may or may not be satisfied by performing labor skills in a game depending on the nature of the game, but they'll probably always feel satisfied with the artsy crafting skills.

So assuming labors can't be guaranteed vital, what would you suggest be done about them? Rolled into more satisfying crafting skills, handwaved away, shunted to NPC mooks? Split into a separate action economy, so each player is performing both menial and crafting labors?

On a slightly different topic, you point out that players like to feel special. What, if anything, do you think ought to be done about repeated or largely equivalent labors, like Stonecrafting and Woodcarving?

If you harvest the bones of the fish, then in theory more fish means multiplicative more value through using the bones in crafts.  The artisan is entirely dependent on something/someone else to provide the material he needs to do accomplish his job.

Does this help distribute satisfaction, though, or does it just kink the system and mean there "has" to be someone or something performing not terribly fulfilling tasks so someone else can do what they've always wanted to?

[Furtuka]

Hey is anyone who read through the entirety of Do not Trust the Rainbow Snail still around? I'm doing a little side project that requires me to research notable games throughout Bay12 history and need as much information as I can on that game in particular. Namely a summary of the main character, the setting, and plot. I would read it myself, but for some reason during that time period everyone used imageshack so most of the image files from that thread are gone.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

I was thinking of making up a Mushi-Shi game but I soon realised it would mostly be based around logic puzzles and prior knowledge of all said Mushi to make the game interesting because that would be unfairly locking off certain people, as well as the fact that most I games wouldn't take that long, with a lot of sorta unfair deaths just from being unkowledgeable about the Mushi.
Hmmm.

[IronyOwl]

Hey is anyone who read through the entirety of Do not Trust the Rainbow Snail still around? I'm doing a little side project that requires me to research notable games throughout Bay12 history and need as much information as I can on that game in particular. Namely a summary of the main character, the setting, and plot. I would read it myself, but for some reason during that time period everyone used imageshack so most of the image files from that thread are gone.

Damn. That was on my "should probably finish this at some point in the distant future but probably won't because if I was going to I probably would have by now" list.

[USEC_OFFICER]

Random idea: The Ur-Quan Masters lets you pit two AI fleets together for epic space duels. Admittedly they're dumb as hell and randomly pick ships, but it's pretty fun to watch and sometimes you get interesting matches too. Even better, if you were to add in a strategic layer, throw in some random bonuses, let players order fleets around and then record those fleets battling each other, you'd have a pretty good forum game, I think. Both sides would have to deal with strategically maneuvering around a starmap, and come up with good fleet compositions that aren't too costly but still work with the AI's... unique tactical approach.

Sounds fun? Or is this one of those ideas that sounds better in your head?

[IronyOwl]

Sounds loosely reminiscent of cockfighting or racing without a jockey. So could be fun on that level, at least.

Less certain about the rest. Might just turn into "play a strategy game only the RNG is reeeeeaaaaallly mean."

[USEC_OFFICER]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'll run some tests with different fleet match-ups to see how 'fair' the battles can be. Ship prices will have to be looked at in depth too, since the AI is simply incapable of flying some ships properly, which will screw with the balance of the game. To make things less bloody I'm also going to add in a chance of destroyed ships coming back as wounded/damaged. So they wouldn't be able to fight until you fixed them, but you don't have to worry so much about deploying the more expensive ships. It's better to spend a couple turns fixing a damaged ship than spending more money buying a replacement after all

Another idea would be to get the players to duke it out over Netplay, but that'll probably just bog the whole game down and people will get disinterested and leave.

The cockfighting tournament is another idea. Who can build the best AI fleet costing under X points, with battles being decided by best out of five or something. Doesn't sound as engaging as my original idea though, but we'll see.

EDIT: Further testing shows that the AI is much stupider and less entertaining than I believed. Also some ships are brokenly OP or just plain terrible, since the AI can't handle their special abilities/weapons. In other words... So much for that idea.

[Squeegy]

Since the UA is running pretty well on its own and the players in Shallow Space seem to be MIA, I thought of another game concept I like even better than the other one and that will allow me to playtest my system some more. I was thinking I could run a Foot Soldiers game wherein the players are all hired to become town guards, and have to do all the things that that job would entail. Kind of like Guards! Guards! and all the other Discworld books that include Vimes.

[Parsely]

I'd be interested in that.

I was thinking of making up a Mushi-Shi game but I soon realised it would mostly be based around logic puzzles and prior knowledge of all said Mushi to make the game interesting because that would be unfairly locking off certain people, as well as the fact that most I games wouldn't take that long, with a lot of sorta unfair deaths just from being unkowledgeable about the Mushi.
Hmmm.

I remember someone else was interested in Mushi-Shi a while ago and I brought up this idea.

---

I've always wanted to run some kind of illustrated puzzle game with original puzzles. The problem is coming up with puzzles. How does one even go about doing that?

[Fniff]

I've always wanted to run some kind of illustrated puzzle game with original puzzles. The problem is coming up with puzzles. How does one even go about doing that?

I heard Soli giving some advice to GWG on GMing. Basically, puzzles are situations the players can't immediately solve and have to figure it out. It can be a sliding block puzzle, but it also can be trying to turn on a sparky fuse box while knee-deep in water without electrocuting yourself. Actually, I find the latter tends to lead to more interesting situations. Fer instance, going back to the fuse box example, it's technically solved if you ask Brad the NPC to turn the fuse box, right? I mean, he dies, but you don't!

[Parsely]

Uh, well I was talking about slightly more traditional puzzles, but I guess there could be scenarios as well..? Aside from that, I guess those examples make sense for other games but something like "talk to Brad to win" would kind of be the sucks for a game that's dedicated to puzzles.

[Fniff]

Well, the point is, puzzles and scenarios are basically the same thing. He explained it much better then I did, I'll try and dig up the post...

[Parsely]

Well, the point is, puzzles and scenarios are basically the same thing. He explained it much better then I did, I'll try and dig up the post...

No I understand what you mean, but my point is that for it to be a good puzzle you'd have to be some kind of riddlemaster or somefin.

[Fniff]

Here's a problem with sliding blocks...

If one of your players happened to have plastic explosives from a previous fight, how would you react if they planted it at the door they were supposed to unlock using the sliding block puzzle and detonated it? It's a perfectly logical solution to the puzzle, but it's also completely ignoring the puzzle you've spent hours on. I've had this problem in various forms. "The gold is heavy in your backpacks as you walk. Suddenly, you stumble into a giant burning cathedral filled with rotating spikes! In the center is a giant samurai warrior with a dragon's head! He is ready to take you on for stealing his gold, an--" "Does the door work?" "Uh, yeah?" "Great. We walk out with the gold." "But... But the samurai is your ancient archene--" "Yeah, screw that. He can go swing, we've got his gold." "Buh... Buh..."

That's why I prefer more open-ended scenarios, as you call them. Put limits on a player and they will try to break them. My advice? You can have sliding block puzzles but make sure you account for C4. Metaphorically speaking.

[Parsely]

Okay.. I mean that's all true (and it's a rule I've always followed myself, I don't expect my players to walk the path I've laid, if I've laid one at all) but I think you're still missing what I'm trying to tell you.

If you've ever heard of the Professor Layton games, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. If it was some RPG I was running, sure that makes sense for people to blow up my puzzles because chances are they're few and far between, but the sort of thing I'm envisioning is one where you just solve puzzles. That's it. So people exploding their way through my puzzle game where you don't collect items or fight enemies or level up and all you do is puzzle isn't even playing the game. :v