Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

Author Topic: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?  (Read 13175 times)

Rose

  • Bay Watcher
  • Resident Elf
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2012, 12:23:10 pm »

actually you can d->b->c to claim everything in an area.
Logged

Wannazzaki

  • Bay Watcher
  • [PRONE_TO_RAGE:9001][TOO_HAIRY][ADAMANTINE BEARD]
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2012, 12:26:25 pm »

Who remembers when legendary book keepers would at max detail predict all future records, also accounting for his own death?
Logged
Son of Slaanesh, full of desire, He does cocaine and his head's on fire! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM Rider! Doom rider! Na na, na na!

Blizzlord

  • Bay Watcher
  • Rarely posting anymore.
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2012, 12:33:29 pm »

Who remembers when legendary book keepers would at max detail predict all future records, also accounting for his own death?
The brain fungus does.

Bookkeeping is important, and I would NEVER set it to anything lower than max.
Logged
Quote from: a Swedish electronics teacher
In Sweden, digital electronics is considered unteachable. That is why you are not being taught about it.
Most attempts of sesquipedalian loquaciousness on the internet will most likely end up in egregious delusions of eloquence. Finagle's law commands it!

lucusLoC

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2012, 12:35:03 pm »

@japa

lol, so true. i didn't even think of that because i always use the stocks screen to mass forbid/reclaim.
Logged
Quantum dumps are proof of "memory" being a perfectly normal dimension in DF. ~Gazz

GavJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2012, 12:41:39 pm »

This all sounds rather fishy to me, and I'm still not convinced there is any real benefit outside of OCD-ness.

Forbidding things in stocks is a terribly inefficient and clumsy way to control what your workshops make.  I find it a bit shocking that everybody seems to do this, actually.  You can do the same thing with two actions per workshop only with a really simple fort layout, in a more intuitive and much more productive way...  To set up:

1) Build your workshops around a central stockpile area depending on their theme.  E.g. mechanics, craftsdwarf, and masons all around a central stone area.  Set a stockpile in the middle to hold whatever you want your default stone material to be.  For example, anything magma-proof perhaps (but any color, whatever).
2) make each workshop access this central area either immediately through a door, or down a long wraparound hallway that dwarves must use if that door is forbidden. So if you had exactly 4 workshops, it would be shaped sort of like a really fat swastika (I try to avoid having exactly 4 for this reason though =P)
3) Build another small room or two behind the workshop (or under it) with specialty stockpiles.  For example, for my mechanics shop, I have a small (3x3) orthoclase and a small olivine stockpile, for color coded mechanisms that are magma safe.  Each of these is separated by a door from the workshop and are closer to it than the middle area, if the main area door is closed.

4) To make green mechanisms, just forbid the door to the middle and open the one to the olivine.  Done.  To make yellow mechanisms, open the yellow door and close the green door... To not waste colorful stone, close the one you were using before and open the shortcut to the middle area. Always exactly two actions to make whatever you want.



The small stockpile size of olivine (3x3 or whatever) means that while my mechanic is working, haulers have time to go top off the stocks of olivine near him automatically, so he doesn't run out.  You might want a slightly larger buffer if your worker works stupendously quickly.

Notice the NUMEROUS benefits over using the stocks screen: I can have my mason's shop producing only cobaltite tables, and my mechanics shop building only olivine mechanisms, and my crafstdwarves using only gray generic stones for pots all at the same time.  Using stocks would mean upwards of 200 different, unnecessary forbidding and claiming actions, and 1/3 the work speed. AND if I used the stocks screen, then my mason would have to run all the way down to my mines or wherever the hell I am keeping my orthoclase, for every item.  This way, unskilled, idle haulers do all that moving right to him so he can be maximally productive, without me lifting a finger.

As for forbidding or dumping litter, it is vastly more precise and useful to use d-b-(c or f or d) and higlighting the pile of dead goblin useless crap on the ground wherever it is.


The only good argument I've seen here so far is for bars and blocks stockpiles, since that has a lot of things lumped into it, and it is indeed nice to know how much steel you have.  Hardly more than a minor luxury, though, since your dwarves will immediately inform you with a big red message when you run out of steel.

But once you're making squads of full steel armor... you probably have a ton of idle dwarves anyway, so sure, crank up the bookkeeping.  Early on though (<30-40 dwarves), I have more than enough for every dwarf to do all the time, and do not want to waste anybody to a 24/7 useless job.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 12:53:39 pm by GavJ »
Logged
Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Wannazzaki

  • Bay Watcher
  • [PRONE_TO_RAGE:9001][TOO_HAIRY][ADAMANTINE BEARD]
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2012, 12:44:47 pm »

It makes the numbers in stocks their actual numbers, not a close approximation for higher accuracies, lower accuracies can have variations of numbers in the thousands and not pick up on new things being produced. To know what you have you would need to physically look over every stock pile, bin by bin..or have some kind of precog power where you know everything coming in, going out or being eaten or reacted. If you can do that, more power to you, for me however i prefer to let a noble do the brainwork.
Logged
Son of Slaanesh, full of desire, He does cocaine and his head's on fire! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM Rider! Doom rider! Na na, na na!

AWdeV

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2012, 12:48:55 pm »

Low is too low. Medium is fine, but I generally go with high. I tend to give my expedition leader record keeping at novice and set him to crafting. When my info is outdated suspend his crafting and when my stocks have grown to such an extent that I can't see it all anymore with low I move to medium and later to high. Advantage of this is that my record keeper gains experience and becomes more proficient in dealing with the increased load.

Highest is a waste of time. Especially because I avoid getting any stocks that high anyway. Useless clutter. Rocks get converted to blocks, gems, crafts and pots before being sold and I keep my digging compact which has the side-effect of insuring I don't need highest record keeping to micromanage my rocks.
Logged
Teenage Bearded Axelord Turtles
Teenage Bearded Axelord Turtles
Urists in a half shell (Turtle Power)

Wannazzaki

  • Bay Watcher
  • [PRONE_TO_RAGE:9001][TOO_HAIRY][ADAMANTINE BEARD]
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2012, 12:51:22 pm »

Low is too low. Medium is fine, but I generally go with high. I tend to give my expedition leader record keeping at novice and set him to crafting. When my info is outdated suspend his crafting and when my stocks have grown to such an extent that I can't see it all anymore with low I move to medium and later to high. Advantage of this is that my record keeper gains experience and becomes more proficient in dealing with the increased load.

Highest is a waste of time. Especially because I avoid getting any stocks that high anyway. Useless clutter. Rocks get converted to blocks, gems, crafts and pots before being sold and I keep my digging compact which has the side-effect of insuring I don't need highest record keeping to micromanage my rocks.

Are you telling me that you  couldn't possibly ever sacrifice one dorf out of the teeming many to update records, and once he gets good at it, spend less time doing it than he does say, sleeping? Is this just to spite how "useless it is?". It makes no sense to me. At all. But each to their own i suppose and i will say no more.
Logged
Son of Slaanesh, full of desire, He does cocaine and his head's on fire! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM Rider! Doom rider! Na na, na na!

AWdeV

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2012, 12:55:40 pm »

What are you talking about? I'm not sure what you read in my post and as a result can't figure out what to read in yours. I get my bookkeeper to keep book when I need it, I don't need anyone working on it permanently. That's just pointless.

And yeah, I do ocassionally have idlers but I'll just set them to dump excess rock and/or move some not-yet-placed furniture.
Logged
Teenage Bearded Axelord Turtles
Teenage Bearded Axelord Turtles
Urists in a half shell (Turtle Power)

Blizzlord

  • Bay Watcher
  • Rarely posting anymore.
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2012, 12:56:58 pm »

What are you talking about? I'm not sure what you read in my post and as a result can't figure out what to read in yours. I get my bookkeeper to keep book when I need it, I don't need anyone working on it permanently. That's just pointless.

And yeah, I do ocassionally have idlers but I'll just set them to dump excess rock and/or move some not-yet-placed furniture.
You can never get rid of all the idlers...
Logged
Quote from: a Swedish electronics teacher
In Sweden, digital electronics is considered unteachable. That is why you are not being taught about it.
Most attempts of sesquipedalian loquaciousness on the internet will most likely end up in egregious delusions of eloquence. Finagle's law commands it!

AWdeV

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2012, 12:59:47 pm »

We'll just see about that!

No seriously, my dump is somewhere at -3. I've dug out chambers, a lot, and a huuge burial hall (and a smaller one for pets) at -10. It's not a straight-down route. It keeps them busy for quite long enough.
Logged
Teenage Bearded Axelord Turtles
Teenage Bearded Axelord Turtles
Urists in a half shell (Turtle Power)

Blizzlord

  • Bay Watcher
  • Rarely posting anymore.
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2012, 01:04:15 pm »

We'll just see about that!

No seriously, my dump is somewhere at -3. I've dug out chambers, a lot, and a huuge burial hall (and a smaller one for pets) at -10. It's not a straight-down route. It keeps them busy for quite long enough.
You got some deep worlds, or you entered the HFS.
Logged
Quote from: a Swedish electronics teacher
In Sweden, digital electronics is considered unteachable. That is why you are not being taught about it.
Most attempts of sesquipedalian loquaciousness on the internet will most likely end up in egregious delusions of eloquence. Finagle's law commands it!

AWdeV

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2012, 01:06:21 pm »

We'll just see about that!

No seriously, my dump is somewhere at -3. I've dug out chambers, a lot, and a huuge burial hall (and a smaller one for pets) at -10. It's not a straight-down route. It keeps them busy for quite long enough.
You got some deep worlds, or you entered the HFS.

NOOO. NEITHER OF THOSE. I HAVE A LOT OF WORKING INDUSTRIES AND 20 IDLERS WALKING THE SPECIFIED DISTANCE WITH A LOAD OF ROCK NEED SOME TIME TO CLEAR A 20 BY 5 AND A 20 BY 10 HALL OF ROCK.
Logged
Teenage Bearded Axelord Turtles
Teenage Bearded Axelord Turtles
Urists in a half shell (Turtle Power)

Blizzlord

  • Bay Watcher
  • Rarely posting anymore.
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2012, 01:08:21 pm »

We'll just see about that!

No seriously, my dump is somewhere at -3. I've dug out chambers, a lot, and a huuge burial hall (and a smaller one for pets) at -10. It's not a straight-down route. It keeps them busy for quite long enough.
You got some deep worlds, or you entered the HFS.

NOOO. NEITHER OF THOSE. I HAVE A LOT OF WORKING INDUSTRIES AND 20 IDLERS WALKING THE SPECIFIED DISTANCE WITH A LOAD OF ROCK NEED SOME TIME TO CLEAR A 20 BY 5 AND A 20 BY 10 HALL OF ROCK.
My worlds usually end at z15, that is what I'm pointing at.
Logged
Quote from: a Swedish electronics teacher
In Sweden, digital electronics is considered unteachable. That is why you are not being taught about it.
Most attempts of sesquipedalian loquaciousness on the internet will most likely end up in egregious delusions of eloquence. Finagle's law commands it!

GavJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What is the point to anything more than low bookeeping precision?
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2012, 01:09:06 pm »

10 z levels is a "deep world?" ...Are we playing the same game? HFS is at about z level -95 or lower for me usually.  It has been as low a -130.
Logged
Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6