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Original amounts (chickens 4-15, crocodiles 20-60)

Something in between.

Modest Mod's current amounts (chickens 2-4, crocodiles 4-8)

Fewer than that.

[ydaraishy]

Also, if we're going to slow down some civilian skills maybe there are some others in need of speeding up? Swimming and crutch-walking can get really annoying in Adventure Mode.

Crutch-walking buff would probably help in dwarf mode too, so there would be less killing off crippled dwarves.

I'm not sure that the crossbow and archer should go back to 100%, since it's pretty easy to hunt your local creature populations into extinction with more than a couple rangers. Maybe 150%?

Hmm, you might be right, if we're talking about multiple rangers that can overhunt your biome.  I tried 125% and it seems to balance it between the hunting and the training, though not sure if that's a bit too slow.

Finally, what do people think about applying some of these same skill changes to other races? Not the combat skills, but the civilian skills. I just think it'd be weird for, say, humans to learn mining faster than dwarves.

Adventurers would definitely benefit from it, I think, at least from the combat boosts.  IIRC, worldgen soldiers increase their skills just as quickly, so your soldiers companions would be stronger.

[Igfig]

The problem with giving other races combat skill buffs is that your opponents would get tougher too.  I wouldn't want to adventure in a world where the average bandit is Skilled instead of Adequate.

Giving them noncombat buffs, however, would do things like ensuring that human goods generated in worldgen aren't higher quality on average than dwarven goods.

Drowning accidents are an important part of the game, and to get rid of them entirely would be contrary to the goals of this mod. Giving men and women different skill gain rates would be sexist, unnecessary, and not really in the spirit of vanilla DF either.

[Moonshine Fox]

This...this is a brilliant idea! Tagging this so I can track it.

[Pan]

Is it really necessary to have the kobolds not eat? I thought that was fixed now...

[tj333]

I would leave the skill rates at alone and I would go so far as to say I would make a point of changing them back if I used this mod.


I would like to see simplified leather and other materials like Masterwork has.

[Sphalerite]

Kobold starvation seems to be avoided in the current version even without modding.

Giving scale and chitin the [SHELL] tag sometimes results in finding large gems made from scale or chitin in marketplaces or trade caravans.

[Igfig]

Are the kobolds really okay now? I know that goblins still have NO_EAT, so I figured the problem hadn't been solved. I'll look into this further.

Scale and chitin gems? Weird. I didn't know shell gems were possible in the first place. Also something to look into. Have you seen any regular stone large gems? Or pearl gems? Or any pearls at all, for that matter?

Tj333, do you mean all the skill rate changes or just the noncombat ones? And, if I might ask, what exactly don't you like about the idea? Do you like the skill rates as they currently are? Do you think the change would stray too far from vanilla? Or is there another reason?

Simplified leather is one of those things that's never going to happen in this mod. It's great in a streamlined context like Masterwork, but it's quite a departure from the vanilla DF philosophy of having tons of redundant-but-flavourful options.

[daveralph1234]

I would leave the skill rates at alone and I would go so far as to say I would make a point of changing them back if I used this mod.

I second this. It's messing too much with the vanilla aspects of the game. I like the idea of a bugfix mod, but not a rebalancing one. Other than that, this looks great.
Maybe have a bugfix only version, and a seperate one with bugfixes and rebalancing.

[rawrcakes]

Just repeating the sentiment here - rebalancing of skill rates is a dealbreaker for me. The current skill rates work just fine, and while I agree that they need to be tuned in relation to each other and the general pacing of the game, the actual level of tuning is completely subjective and as thus shouldn't be in a baseline bugfix-type mod like this, I feel. Especially the military thing sort of feels to me like something spawned by habitual usage of danger rooms to powerlevel your military, then feeling the regular is too slow rather than playing the game without exploits.

If you could adjust the training AI to allow for more dwarves to spar simultaenously, or to make individual training and demonstrations more effective, then that would be an okay alternative, I suppose, but just adjusting the base skill gain rates would lead to ridiculously fast progression in two-man squads, which already are very strong at training.

Alternatively, you could release a double-mod with and without the skill adjustments. 'Modest Mod Plus' or something, which could also feature your view of rebalanced rates.

[Igfig]

All right then, it looks like skill rate changes aren't as vital as I thought. I'll put all of them back to the regular 100%... except for the leadership skills. Teacher, Student, and Leader all make demonstrations and individual training more effective, which, as you said, is a reasonable thing to do. Would people be okay with that?

I have actually been planning a Modest Mod Plus, but that would be a little more ambitious. It would involve the most common and/or particularly useful changes made in mods (e.g. pedestals, tougher megabeast materials, an "Overseer" noble), although it would still aim to stay in the same spirit as vanilla. There would also be a bunch of flavour improvements, mostly to creatures (tweaking bodies, adding sounds and relevant interactions).

[Igfig]

All right, a new version is out. I've removed the combat skill increases, but left the leadership skill increases in.

The next big question: which reactions need to be given the option to choose specific reagents? Brewing? Milling/pressing/plant processing? Dying? Leatherworking? Stonecrafting? Carpentry?

My personal opinion is that only the reactions where it makes a real difference, where there's no other way to specify what to use, and where there are only a few choices, should be considered for the honour. Brewing doesn't need it, because you can already specify what plants your dwarves are allowed to brew or not. Stonecrafting ditto, and there are also way too many different stones for it to be practical. Leatherworking doesn't really care what kind of leather you use, since they're all pretty much the same.

The only reactions where it makes much sense, I believe, are milling and dying, and those only barely. If you want your military to all be outfitted in red cloaks, say, there's only one way to do that right now: buy the materials one by one from the caravan, mill everything in your fortress until you get enough red dye, dye cloth with all your dye until you get enough red cloth, and then make cloaks with all your cloth until you get enough red cloaks.

Of course, it's not possible to specify custom reactions at the dyer's, so I guess it'd just be milling.

Your thoughts on the matter?

[daveralph1234]

we need a way of specifying magma safe stone, for masons and mechanics. Or sometimes, if you are in a flux rich area, you may want to have all furniture (and by extension everything else I guess) made from flux because it has twice the material value.

Also, thanks for this, will be trying it out.

I think the easiest way of implementing this would be to add a new workshop with custom reactions, I think I've seen this done elsewere so you may be able to borrow it.

[Igfig]

I was about to say that adding a new workshop is really un-vanilla... but then I had an interesting thought. If I remove the regular mechanic and mason's workshops from the dwarf entity def, I can add new workshops that are completely identical to the old ones except for a few new reactions.  Hell, I could do that for a lot of workshops.  I'm going to give this a go.

As for the reactions themselves, I think all we really need is a few for magma-safe stone products. Mechanisms, doors, floodgates, hatches, grates... anything else? You can already specify that everything should be made out of marble by marking all other stones as non-economic in the Stones menu.

And I guess that means I should add a MAGMA_SAFE reaction class. Maybe a few others while I'm at it, just for convenience. Any requests?

[dree12]

... If I remove the regular mechanic and mason's workshops from the dwarf entity def...

And how would you do that?

[Igfig]

Ha! I knew there must have been a reason nobody had done it before.

Well played.