Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[slothen]

as we all know, un upward ramp/stairwell covered by hatchcovers is an instantly lockable impenetrable defense.  This is because creatures cannot destroy things on a tile above them.  Does this mean that a line of ramps on level 1 leading to a set of doors on lvl 2 also invincible?  (with doors constructed directly above the walls that are adjacent to the ramps).  I think it would be so since an invader can only stand on the ramp, which counts as being 1 z level below, and cannot stand on the same z-level as the door.  This probably isn't news to anyone, but it never occurred to me because of the way I conceptualize ramps.  It's also the only way to use doors for this exploit.

[Girlinhat]

I probably wouldn't have figured that out on my own because that's rarely one of my concerns.  My defensive measures are usually steel and bearded.  But your logic is sound, I think it would work.

[slink]

If that works, then floodgates should also be invincible when used in that manner.  That means we can seal off the caravan route against building destroyers and still be able to let wagons inside when we want to.   

It makes sense, because you can't build a floodgate if the only access is from a ramp.  I found that out the hard way when building water reservoirs.

[i2amroy]

I'm fairly certain that this will work, especially since currently building destroyers have to stand with at least 1 empty tile in between them and what they are destroying, and actually can't destroy a building that is adjacent to them.

[Archereon]

Anyone wana volunteer to to !!SCIENCE!!?

[Nil Eyeglazed]

I watched for this in v31-- ramps did not prevent BDs from destroying furniture adjacent to the ramp.  Hence, the following line on the BD wiki page: "Building destroyers can destroy buildings from the z-level below while standing on a ramp or stairs that leads up to the building's z-level."

[Garath]

The ramp sort of puts the creature high enough to reach the door. The hatch cover stops it from getting high enough to reach the next z level. For an example, a dwarf can't destroy a closed hatch from below either, but if you put a door on a wall with a ramp leading up to it, you can deconstruct it too. Easy science. This situation actually did happen.

[slink]

Dwarves can build doors with only a ramp to access them because doors are open when they are installed.  Dwarves can't install a floodgate that way.  I've tried that several times in the past.  They won't destruct a wall that way or, apparently, build one.  I just now tried that.  I am going to leave three floodgates on top of a wall, approachable only from ramps, outside my fortress.  Two of the floodgates are backed by a wall and the other is backed by a walkable space not reachable from the ground.  The next Vile Force of Darkness should bring me some trolls to test this.

Edit: Trolls in the next Vile Force of Darkness ignored the floodgates.  Unknown whether this was because they could do nothing with them, or if it was because their attention was on the fortress entrance.  I have now redone my entrance to incorporate this test, so they must destroy the floodgates in order to enter.  Waiting now, for the next seige ...

Edit #2:  Next seige was a dragon, who was attempting to destroy my open floodgates when I closed them.  He was thereafter not able to access them and moved away from the entrance.  He did appear to be standing on the ramp when he was attempting to destroy them but was apparently unable to continue his effort after the ramp became his only access to the floodgates.  When the floodgates were once again opened, he proceeded to destroy them (after burning up an Elven caravan en route to the depot).

My conclusion is that it works, for closed floodgates.  Perhaps it will work for locked doors also.

Edit #3: It works for locked doors, also.

Edit #4: It does work, but appears not to, if there is an open path to the back side of the door.  When both the floodgates and the door were closed, the trolls showed no interest in them.  Before I had locked the door, one was trying to destroy it, but stopped when I locked it.  They wandered off.  I opened the floodgates.  They returned.  They began destroying both the floodgates and the locked door, standing apparently on the ramps.  However, they could have accessed them from the same level if they had moved a few squares.  I believe this is similar to Dwarves appearing to build on the diagonal when they can reach the site from an orthogonal position.  The game is not violating the rules, but it is displaying a wrong configuration.  These trolls could not access the locked door and closed floodgates without being able to reach them from the same level, but once that was possible they destroyed them from a position on the ramps, without moving to the same level.  For Dwarven construction this is not very important, but if you had archers stationed down a corridor where the trolls should have been standing, this would be more important.  Whether this bug also operates if the open path happens to run the full length of your fortress rather than a few steps into a corridor, I don't know.
 

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

What is the advantage of floodgates over a drawbridge?  They both require someone to pull a lever to seal off your fortress, but drawbridges are always invincible.

[Garath]

if it works with a locked door. profit

[slink]

What is the advantage of floodgates over a drawbridge?  They both require someone to pull a lever to seal off your fortress, but drawbridges are always invincible.

Maybe I use drawbridges wrong, but I always dig pits over which to place the bridges.  That means I can't redesign the entrance easily because the floor below had to have been dug with the pit(s) in mind.  Also, when someone goes berserk they destroy the bridge(s) and no one can go in or out.  If this happens when half of the population is out of the fortress, it is a disaster.  Destroying a floodgate leaves the fortress open, which is another type of disaster but at least does not either leave half of the population stranded or require an emergency tunnel be dug which will have no minefields.

But basically I'm just fascinated with the idea that something which is normally destructable might be safe in this circumstance.   

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

Maybe I use drawbridges wrong, but I always dig pits over which to place the bridges.

The pits aren't necessary.  Also, you miss out on all the fun of atom-smashing your enemies with your front door!

[Kaos]

what about drawbridges from above?


I'm trying a fortress entrance like this: ramps going down into the fortress and the ramp hole covered with a drawbridge, if I close the entrance building destroyers will be able to access the closed bridge from above, can they destroy it?


I don't like to use raise-bridges to avoid atom-smashing something by mistake.

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

Building destroyers can never attack drawbridges.  Above, below, open, closed, retracted, extended, it doesn't matter.  No one can ever attack drawbridges.  They are always invincible.

(Drawbridges can be destroyed by dropping them on something non-atom-smashable (Titans, FBs, etc) or by melting if something very hot touches them while they're open)

[Kaos]

Building destroyers can never attack drawbridges.  Above, below, open, closed, retracted, extended, it doesn't matter.  No one can ever attack drawbridges.  They are always invincible.

(Drawbridges can be destroyed by dropping them on something non-atom-smashable (Titans, FBs, etc) or by melting if something very hot touches them while they're open)

drwabridges are the ones that simply disappear when you pull the lever, i think you mean rise-bridges (the ones that raise to form a wall)