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[MagmaMcFry]

First of all, "weerd" != "weird". I know how to spell "weird", thank you very much. I simply created a new word ("weerd") and defined it to refer to the behaviour you were showing on D2, and I did that so I didn't have to type "much more interested in keeping his own image clean than in scumhunting" every time I meant that. Call it a macro if you want to.

Now let's define "dikk" to refer to Dariush's behaviour in this game. Note that "dikk" != "dick". I voted for Dariush because he was a dikk and because Dariush being a dikk can't be explained by Dariush being sane town.

My premises that lead to the conclusion "Dariush is very likely scum" were:
1) Dariush is very likely sane.
2) Dariush is being a dikk.
3) Sane dikks are very likely scum.
These premises are all completely reasonable, and Dariush was very likely to be scum from an observer's point of view. The fact that Dariush was still town doesn't disprove my reasoning, it merely shows that Dariush was insane.

Now let's apply this to you:

1) You are very likely sane.
2) You are being weerd.
3) Sane weerd people are very likely scum.

Conclusion: You are very likely scum.

Isn't that already a set scumtell?

Appearing Too Townie: There's no official name for this one, but being too concerned about your image; specifically avoiding things that might be seen as scumtells. The idea is that scum are very concerned about being found out, and so want to act nonscummy. Townies know they're not scum, so they're less concerned about LOOKING nonscummy and more concerned about finding scum.

There you have it. "Weerd" is already an officially recognized scumtell.

Which is a coincidence because:

Now if I just understood that correctly, you just voted me because I'm the least scummy. . . .

It fits that scumtell.

No it doesn't. It might fit the scumtell's title (assuming there is such a thing as "too towny"), but it does not fit its description. The description is the exact same thing as what I called "weerd", and the title is just misleading. A better title for this scumtell would be "Caring about appearing towny". You have to understand the reasoning behind a scumtell before you can apply it. Looks like you just looked at the title.

How can stuff make too much sense? How can scumhunting not make sense? How is making sense a scumtell?

And answers that question.

No it doesn't.

Spoiler: Phoenix Wright moment two (click to show/hide)

If I were scum, then I'd be very dangerous scum, and it would be good for town to lynch me first. But if I were town and I got lynched, what would happen then? We'd lose, that's what. Essentially, you're voting for me so town has a better position on D4 if it comes to D4. But that does not increase the chances of us reaching D4, and that's exactly what we should be doing.

There are two scum and 7 town in a BM game with one lynch and on night attack. That mean, if all scum can survive two days 4 people are out. Which is what we have now. with only five players left and no scum scum found. If they last one more day with both scum, that's two more town gone. That leave one town and two scum. Scum can go ahead an reveal themselves right then and there because town is outnumbered and cant do anything.
By taking out one scum There will be two town and one scum left in the game.
Taking all that into account, IF what I believe is correct, It would be easy to see who the other scum is because there woulds only be one scum left who had been defending the other. If you have that train of though then you would have to look for who had been defending who. That would be [Magma and Phibes] and [Strategia and I]. That means if I am lynched and I am scum, that leave Strategia as the next logical choice, or vice versa. That also means that, if Magma is Lynched and is scum, then that leaves Phibes as the next logical choice. This fact was made evident to me by Borno's comment:

Strategia, Zomara, why are you SCCCUUUUMMM?!

Great, you know how Mafia works. Now what was your point there? And how has Borno's comment shown you that?

It showed me that I should not just focus on who is scum, but also focusing on who are apart of the scum team. Taking myself out of the equation, it doesn't leave many people.
Plus, looking into the fact that there is likely at least one competent scum:

That means if I am lynched and I am scum, that leave Strategia as the next logical choice, or vice versa. That also means that, if Magma is Lynched and is scum, then that leaves Phibes as the next logical choice.

Aha. So you're saying that the scumteam is either me/Phibes or you/Strategia because two teams seem to have formed. Great job, you know what to do on D4. Can we focus on D3 for now?

That means that it is nether I, nor Borno, nor Phibes that should be checked, but you and Strate. . . . . whatever his name is.

Excusez-moi? Do you want to stop being investigated? Let's assume that either me/Phibes or you/Strat are the scumteam. We can find out who is the scumteam by investigating all four of us. Why should we restrict ourselves to the two people who, as you say, are better in being/playing town? No, my friend. I've caught half of the scumteam, and I won't let go.

Spoiler: Idea to prove my point (click to show/hide)

 lets have a NL. If they make a night kill, then They will likely (I dont know if they have to) chose a town. From there, we will be easily able to tell who it is. and it will give us a day 4. Or a draw.

Oh god no. LYLO is called LYLO for a reason: If you don't lynch scum, you lose. Let's say that D3 ends with no-lynch and D4 starts with two scum and two town. Then scum can simply both vote a townie, and since town doesn't have a majority, they can't lynch scum. Therefore, scum is impossible to lynch and has won. Draws don't exist in BMs.
The only possibility to survive after a no-lynch on LYLO is to have the doctor save correctly on N3, assuming a doctor exists, and then we're in the same situation as before. So a no-lynch on LYLO is completely stupid.

[IronyOwl]

It's time for an IC WALL OF TEXT!~ Yaaaaaaaay!~


Broken into spoilers for readability. I hope that helps and not hurts.

Spoiler: Part One (click to show/hide)

First I think I can actually see what he means by "more competent = more dangerous". Correct me if I am wrong, but a more competent scum can hide himself as town quite easily, allowing him to survive longer and kill more town.

You are not hunting competent people. You are hunting scum. Hunting competent scum is even better, but only if it's actually both parts.

Taking all that into account, IF what I believe is correct, It would be easy to see who the other scum is because there woulds only be one scum left who had been defending the other.

WIFOM is attempting to guess at the motivations and actions of people who know you're attempting to figure out their motivations and actions. Assuming that scum will or won't do something is generally not sound; you need specific evidence in that direction.

Also, defending is not limited to scum on scum. It can also be a form of buddying, which is frequently used to get into a townie's good graces, and depending on your definition, can also cover legitimate chainsawing (that is, attacking someone for a poor attack, not to defend their target) or genuine observation in someone's favor.

You are both wrong. Nether always makes sense because both would be, by nature, trying to find (or "find") scum or keep enough suspicion off of them to do something productive, i.e. trying to find (or "find") scum. That in itself is a scum tell to most, because it makes too much sense.

Attempting to find scum is generally not seen as a scumtell.

Spoiler: Part Two (click to show/hide)

I am sure it is obvious what he means by "read". Its a tell to gauge how scummy a person might be. You, more often than not, read on the lowest part of that gauge. The "Town" part. Because, to Town, everyone is supposed to seem somewhat scummy at least, you stand out like a mountain in Florida.

Appearing Too Townie: There's no official name for this one, but being too concerned about your image; specifically avoiding things that might be seen as scumtells. The idea is that scum are very concerned about being found out, and so want to act nonscummy. Townies know they're not scum, so they're less concerned about LOOKING nonscummy and more concerned about finding scum.

I take personal credit for poorly naming this one. Do note that the tell regards concern with appearance, especially at the cost of effectiveness, not merely towniness.

Appearing too towny is not, by itself, a scumtell, because there really isn't a point at which someone's so townlike they must be scum. There is, however, a point at which they're so concerned with appearing townlike that they might be scum.

A decent analogy might be to assume you're attempting to catch liars amongst honest people. There is no point at which someone's so honest they're actually a liar, but there is a point at which they're doing so much to look honest that they're probably a liar in disguise, not a genuinely honest person who wants everyone to know about it.

if I remember correctly, once is a coincidence, twice is suspicious, but, today making the third time, three times is a pattern.

Do note that this is a very loose, often incorrect rule of thumb; it should not be applied to complex situations without proper reasoning. It also involves issues of WIFOM.

This isn't Sherlock Holmes, and we don't have all the time in the world. Right now, having a possible reason and a possible theory is better than having nothing at all.

While you can never be absolutely certain of anything, it is important to ensure that your best guess is indeed your best guess, not merely a possibility you've decided to run with.

Spoiler: Part Three (click to show/hide)

The only way you would or should not need to convince anyone is if they are scum and working with you, which makes you scum. I am sure that is not what you are aiming at, but that is what, to me, it seemed like you were saying.

Convincing other townies is actually often a vital skill in actually accomplishing anything. Without a majority vote, your target isn't going to get lynched, after all. It's not especially uncommon for one or two people to validly suspect someone who later turns out to be scum, but simply be utterly unable to turn that suspicion into a coherent, convincing argument for why anyone else should think they're scum.

It's also not especially uncommon for people to get themselves lynched screaming incoherently that someone is scum for very poorly worded reasons. Sadly, in many cases both are town.

I think we can rule out borno as scum, beacuse when it was a tie between zomora and magma borno choose to vote me instead of finishing the game.

Do note that scum is attempting to act like town, and so while there are a handful of situations (primarily ones where they win instantly with no chance of town response) where scum would have no reason not to act a certain way, almost any other instance is potentially risky and thus involves WIFOM.

Also note that in some cases, incompetence, mistakes, or other issues can create odd results. Simply put, assuming the scumteam is perfectly competent is usually not a sound thing to do.

Spoiler: Part Four (click to show/hide)

It showed me that I should not just focus on who is scum, but also focusing on who are apart of the scum team.

While this is true, locking yourself into specific thought patterns can be dangerous. It's possible for two scum members to not interact in a meaningfully suspicious way, for instance, but still show scumtells on their own.

Plus, looking into the fact that there is likely at least one competent scum:

Making assumptions about the competence of the scumteam is generally not wise, as in most cases you've got no real way to tell.

lets have a NL. If they make a night kill, then They will likely (I dont know if they have to) chose a town. From there, we will be easily able to tell who it is. and it will give us a day 4. Or a draw.

This is actually a valid strategy for MYLO- Mislynch and Lose, a situation where town have two more members than scum, meaning if they lynch town, scum nightkill and then win; but if they nolynch, scum nightkill and they go to LYLO with one fewer suspect.

For LYLO- Lynch or Lose, where town has one more member than scum, the name is quite accurate- town has no choice but to lynch successfully or lose on the spot.

Also note that there is no such thing as a tie in mafia (barring a few bizarre exceptions with strange gametypes). There are sometimes factions or individuals who aren't scum or town, and whose win conditions thus aren't necessarily mutually exclusive with everyone else's, but not in a Beginner's Mafia.

Please note that this does not appear to be particularly LYLO-ish activity levels; aside from Magma and zomara, nobody seems to have much to say.

[Dr.Phibes]

Sorry i cant see any reasons for a scum not to end the game and win. It is just stupid to do as Borno if he actually is scum.

Irony, i think everyone agrees it is Strategia and zomora, so what can we do? Except wating for them to say something?

[Darvi]

Scum can't just "end the game". This game doesn't have hammers.

[Dr.Phibes]

That may be true, but almost everytime we had finished voting the day ended.

[Tiruin]

=/

The Day will not end prematurely unless people vote to shorten the day. That is, there is no "hammer" in Beginner's Mafia, where X amount of votes (more than 50%) on a single person immediately ends the day with a lynch on that person. Some games do that, but not this one, and you would be explicitly informed in the rules if the hammer is active.

If there are tied votes for who gets lynched at the end of the day, the day ends in a no-lynch. (Two people vote for Generic_Steve, two people vote for Unassuming_Mary. Nobody gets lynched.)

Each Night, you send in your actions. The cycle continues until one side wins. Days are 72 hours and nights are 24 hours. Weekends count for zero hours.

[Strategia]

I found free wifi. After a quick browse through what's been posted since I left, I'm switching to borno and Phibes as the most likely scumteam. I'll do a more thorough read and reply when I'm back home tomorrow. PFP, you see.

[MagmaMcFry]

Extend.

[Dr.Phibes]

Strategia, like changing suspects much? Why do you suspect everyone except zomora?

Extend(can we even extend if everyone have voted?)

I seriously wonder why people think it is borno, especially Strategia, he thought it was me and Magma and know he think it is me and borno? Still using the voting as hes defence, he could have "ended" last week, but instead he voted me and if you think we are scum team that makes it even stranger.

[IronyOwl]

That may be true, but almost everytime we had finished voting the day ended.

Game end and total votes have no bearing on each other. Sometimes 14-player games lynch people on 3 votes, because it beats out all the other 2-vote ties and people not voting at all or still voting someone they just slightly suspect.

You can generally find when the day is scheduled to end in the latest votecount.

Extend(can we even extend if everyone have voted?)

Votes are not a static, permanent statement of your final decision.

So yes, you may vote to Extend even when all players are currently voting someone. In fact, it's often seen as suspicious if someone isn't voting anyone when the day's supposed to be ending, since it implies that they don't have any real suspects.

Sorry i cant see any reasons for a scum not to end the game and win. It is just stupid to do as Borno if he actually is scum.

As Darvi has pointed out, there is no way to instantly end the game in a BM, meaning any attempt to win for scum has some element of risk to it. This makes it very risky to attempt to infer alignment from any particular actions or lack thereof.

This isn't to say it's impossible to infer someone as more or less townlike from their actions, but it's WIFOM, because you'd have to know exactly what they're thinking for that train of logic to work.

Irony, i think everyone agrees it is Strategia and zomora, so what can we do? Except wating for them to say something?

If you're absolutely certain, you may vote to Shorten. Do remember that town needs a unanimous decision to overcome a scum vote block at this stage of the game (which, again, scum might or might not create), and that the entire game rests on your decision here. A mislynch results in town losing, so you should be very, very certain before intentionally rushing the lynch.

Also bear in mind that there is always more information to be collected. Investigating players you don't believe are scum but have poor reads on, for instance, can be a productive way to confirm or reconsider your current suspicions.

[Think0028]

Votecount!
zomara0292 [3]: Dr.Phibes, MagmaMcFry, borno
Dr.Phibes [1]: Strategia
MagmaMcFry [1]: zomara0292
Day extended to Wednesday. Now need at least 3 people in order to extend.

[zomara0292]

Just to make sure I am looking through this correctly, I am the replacement of who's replacement?

[Tiruin]

drakon136 > Bulldog > zomara0292

There is a search option.

[zomara0292]

drakon136 > Bulldog > zomara0292

There is a search option.

Thanks. And sorry. I once again pulling myself into something I aught not. As in pulling out my ultra-super fine comb through this hells nappy hair of information for the last three days trying to find what it is that Strategia must have, and to see if Magma (or was it Phibes) has any truth in the fact that my predecessors voted along with him, and, if he is, the reasoning behind them doing so. I am also doing the same with magma and phibes. yah.

[zomara0292]

OK. I need a way to severly shorten down what I need to read and focus on something specified towards scum hunting.

Phibes, Magama, Borno, and Strategia, please list who you think is town and why? I would prefer it if you use quotes from what they have said in the past, to back up your argument/point.