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Author Topic: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing  (Read 3192 times)

Thanatos

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A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« on: March 03, 2012, 04:25:43 pm »

As the title says, I hadn't played DF in a couple years (not seriously, anyway) and decided to give it my all last night, especially since I've finally gotten an upgraded computer that actually runs the game pretty well, even with over 100 dwarves just idling around.

The result was several hours of consecutive gameplay leading to me giving up on my fort in frustration after nearly three years. Frustration that wasn't over the game's punishing mechanics, but over my own shortcomings when it came to the design of my expedition. Anyway, I wanted to post about my experience in the dual hope of, on the one hand, maybe helping anyone else out there avoid the same mistakes, and of eliciting any suggestions from the community at large. So here we go.

Fortress Design Flaw: The location was a brook-valley between two separate mountain biomes, which seemed to have everything you'd want from a fortress site: shallow metals, flux, deep metals, trees and even a soil layer with an aquifier in an adjacent biome. Nothing particularly out of ordinary for the start up crew. Two miners, a carpenter, a mason, two growers and a trader. I usually don't know what to do with the excess start up points anyway, so nothing revolutionary here.

Now I tackled the digging on a one-step-at-a-time basis. The entrance needs room for a trade depot. The trade depot has to have a stockpile nearby for efficiency. The stockpile has to have workshops nearby to produce finished goods. Then I go out of my way to find soil so that I can build a farm without needing to bother with a complex irrigation system that may flood my fort. Those farms need to be near plant stockpiles. Those plant stock piles need to be near the kitchens. The kitchens need to be near the dining room. The dining room needs to be near the common dormitory (screw private living arrangements until I can prove that I can get this fort defending itself 5 years running, right?).

Well, at that point I had created something that was neither aesthetically pleasing nor particularly efficient. What happened was that the further I dug into the earth, the more spread out and decentralized my fortress became.

The design flaws of my fortress became more obvious as I desperately started searching all the Z-levels for iron ore and coal so that I could start making some steel equipment. Now despite what the start-up location map told me, I found neither of these things. Instead a found a lot of cheap gems and, eventually, tons of silver ore. More ore than I could smelt with tree-fuel alone. Anyway, by the time I abandoned my fortress, my fort resembled a giant ant colony. The rooms and passages sort of had a function, but the type that would puzzle modern archaeologists on the scale of Knossos's labyrinth-city.

I think a lot of forts can get ruined by a player's obsessive compulsion to get everything to look perfect and geometrically exact, but clearly the way I was approaching it was not the right way to tackle this game. The one-room-at-a-time philosophy created a monstrous cave system in my game.

No Appreciation for Trade: As soon as I realised I wasn't getting any coke or iron from the this mountain, I should've been working to trade for these very things. In my past attempts at this game, I just threw a bunch of well made lavish meals into the trade depot and got tons of items from caravans through that, but that was never a rewarding experience. This time around I tried to trade only items that other civilizations would conceivably want/expect from a Dwarven colony; i.e. anything except meals. And whatever my dwarven mothercity is willing to pay double for, that's what I try to spend the year making.

Again, I think there was a problem with this approach. It focused on what I wanted to give away, rather than what I wanted to get out of trade. Dwarf Fortress operates on a bartering economy, so it's not like I'm amassing any real wealth by mass producing hot selling products. Should I have been taking the trading opportunity to stockpile on foreign foods and drinks? On cloth and leather so that I don't have to bother with making a new industry to acquire those raw goods? Or should I have just taken every single weapon and armour piece I could come across, even though lavishly expensive, in the vain hope of arming my citizens before I can get my hands on some quality iron ore?

I don't actually know the answer here, but it's something I have to think about before embarking on a second fortress.

Security Fail: Ultimately, a bad security design is what did me in. I had a drawbridge, war dogs and a ton of traps. And I learnt that these are not substitutes for a military. A fisherdwarf had spotted a goblin ambush miles away before they reached my entrance, so I got a change to get my fort firmly under lockdown. When over half of the invaders had fallen prey to stonefall or cage traps, I enlisted my miners, woodcutters and rangers to go wipe up the last of them. These guys had no actual experience as I had never put them in squads before. They wore no armour because of my game's utter lack of iron. They went out and chased the remaining two goblin ambushers across the map, only to fall right smack dab in the middle of a second goblin ambush, armed to the teeth! I lost every man.

Thankfully, the fort went back into lockdown mode and the goblins called it quit and ran off. I still had over 70 dwarves in my keep, but the problems piled up fast. The most annoying thing was that some of my soldiers had fallen into my own cage traps and I was having way too much trouble in releasing them. I had also collected over a dozen captured goblins in cages, and that's not much fun. I just sort of started accidentally collecting them as the years went by! Oh, and about a dozen of my civilians started going crazy because of the massacre of the sortie. So once those insane people were put down, that was over 20 dwarves I needed to make coffins or memorials for. And then it hit me: where on earth am I supposed to put a Memorial Hall? Where should I put my pet goblins on display?

I had no answers and my limited vision for the fort eroded into nothing.

I came to the conclusion that I have to be playing this game all wrong. I launched an expedition with the attitude of "I'll deal with it when it comes up," and that works for the unforeseeable things that can happen in Dwarf Fortress. But some things are inevitable and probably should have been planned for by me from the very beginning, like goblins attacks! I should've had a military by the second year. God knows I had the idlers to fill the rank and file. The problem was equipping them without iron. But with the amount of wealth in stone crafts I can make in a year, I should've been begging the dwarf caravans to bring iron bars to me, bins full of it, just in case I don't find any in two years time.

I think that for the second fortress I attempt, I should have a design for the society in mind. Maybe my original seven colonists should have a revered and honoured role in the society? Maybe two of them should be dedicated soldiers, rather than growers? Perhaps the entrance should be lined with statues of them, rather than innumerable cage traps that will catch anything that moves. I think playing this game with an initial, but flexible, plan for your expedition is the way I should have been going about it to begin with.

But I'm not sure about any of this, or really how you go about the problems I experienced as outlined above, so if you have any ideas or similar experiences of your own that you want to share, I'd love to hear them.
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Psieye

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 04:44:47 pm »

Ok there's one key problem I notice that supercedes everything: you didn't catch the mineral scarcity update way back in DF2010. Don't assume you will find a military-purpose metal on your embark site unless you changed the mineral scarcity to the absolute minimum. When the site finder says "shallow/deep 'metal' " what it means is there'll be something that will bring up the message "you have struck ______". That could be sphalerite (zinc ore), that could be cobaltite, it could even be microcline.

Your main source of iron will probably be by looting the goblins - yes you need to get it off them without any guarantee of having weapons-grade metal on hand. You will need to think up of some defence system that doesn't need a well equipped military. Personally I use Dodge-Me (TM) traps but I find it can take a couple years to set them up so spam cage traps to buy you that extra year's worth of time. I suppose spending embark points to bring (enough of) the raw materials for bronze would be one way you could get around this. A sea of cage traps would be a lame but viable solution. Just don't use stonefall traps on armoured foes, they got heavily nerfed compared to the 40d days.


I'm not sure how far back it was when you last played seriously. "A couple of years" might bring you to before DF2010's release. Are you familiar with the magma sea?
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

Thelogman

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 04:56:15 pm »

My thoughts:

1. I actually try to keep the dining quarters far away from the sleeping quarters. Eating creates a noise that disturbs sleep. I think it might only penetrate a square or two, but it dissuades me from building one right on the other, so I usually end up having sleepy town a far way away from anything else.

2. After breaching the caverns one time too many, I learned that keeping the eating and sleeping place far away from both the entrance AND the mining designations was a good idea. As a result I tend to avoid the central-staircase design in lieu of a complex series of up/downs with traps lining them and no easy direct access from the danger zones to the safe zones.

3. I used to build distinct rooms with 2-square hallways connecting them, until I realized it wasn't necessary. Now I dig out massive spaces and just have everything in there, for the most part. Right now a 25 by 25 square encompasses my food, cloth, trade, wood, booze, and fish industries. Another square a few floors down has all my stone-crafting and gem cutting, and when I get my furnaces running, there will be a connection from the giant wood room to the giant furnace room.

4. Defense is easy depending on how strict you want to get. My fortresses are either cut into the face of a mountain with a long hallway, or ramped down into an underground long hallway. Either way, a simple drawbridge made by a dabbing mechanic is enough to keep me safe in case of 99% of attacks. Later on if I want to get more fancy I'll design dodging traps, train a military, and so on. 

5. On trade: I tend to ask for metal bars, and maybe cloth. I grow my own cloth, but clothiers work fast, and turning a cloth into a cloak still makes me money. I don't like to buy things made of metal, since I trust my own guys to make metal stuff better.

6. I don't know about "visions" for the fortress. My visions are usually pretty simple, and generally revolve around making the best artifacts I can, or designing a good defense system. Last time was my attempt at a magma-based dodge trap, which worked wonderfully on the undead hordes, and this time I'm working on some modded booze that turns my dwarves into dragons (dragon and GCS based system).

Society can be fun to design, but I've never found it necessary to have a good time.
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slink

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 05:18:10 pm »

At this time, traders don't bring you bins of anything except cloth and leather.  Even if you set steel bars to the maximum, and ask for nothing else, they won't bring more than two or maybe three bars of steel.  What they will bring is armor and weapons, some of which may be steel or iron.  There won't be much of that, either, and some of it will cost more than it needs to because they have decorated it to the hilt.  At least you can get some decent armor and weapons that way.

Traders sometimes ask for prepared meals specifically.  I don't see what is shameful about selling those, if that is what you do best.  I personally sell stonecrafts.  I picture my fortress leader reading the laison's list of desired goods, nodding, and then saying "but what you'll get is stone crafts, instruments, toys, and mugs because that's what we make".  Oh, and leftover clothing that doesn't fit anyone, somewhat stained with blood.

The newest version of DFHack has a built-in function to sample the minerals at your planned embark before you even go there.  It is helpful to know that there is some iron there, and not just zinc, when the finder says "metal".  You can get a full assay after you settle.  The nice thing is that you no longer have to reveal the map in order to get the assay, so the pleasure of discovery is not ruined.  It just lets you know that you will eventually discover something useful so you don't spend all day digging only to discover that there are 12 gold nuggets just above Hell.

The order in which I do things in this version (34.04) is this:

Embark with 7 picks, 2 axes, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 5 turkeys (4 hens and a gobbler), 1 anvil, 1 rope, loads of booze and cheap food, and 9 seeds of everything except dimple cups.  Sometimes I skip buying plump helmets and take 27 plump helmet seeds instead.  Don't spend anything on skills.  Make all seven miners when they arrive, and also masons, carpenters, mechanics, and architects.  They will be jack-of-all-trades until the first migrants appear, but mostly miners.  After the migrants fill in, they will become legendary miners.

Plan my water supply, then plan a main stairwell that fits to that.  Dig down and make a couple of rooms for storage and get everything and everyone except the draft animals underground.  Pasture the draft animals for now.

Dig the water supply, but do not yet build it.  Build a mason's shop, carpenter's shop, and mechanic's shop.  Start building the wall around the entrance for the air-locked courtyard that will protect the depot and prevent invaders from entering.  Dig both pits and put bridges over them.  Build mechanisms and floodgates for the water supply and bridge control.  Build the depot.  Build one bucket and one block.  Build the well and the floodgates that will control the water supply.  Build the three levers and connect them to the two bridges and the floodgates.  Tap the water supply.  Open the gates and let the reservoir fill.  Finish the wall.  Define a civilian alarm burrow.  Make sure the bridges work.  GASP FOR BREATH.

Now dig out caverns for food.  By now there will probably be migrants to help.  Have them plant plump helmets.  Build nest boxes to start collecting turkey eggs.  Start digging a dining room, hospital, and more storage space.  Slaughter the draft animals as soon as there is a refuse pile and some place to put a butcher's shop and tanner's shop.  Build a craftsman's shop and have someone start making storage pots and things to sell.  Someone will want it for a mood anyway.  Comes the first winter, I can start digging down for magma.  If I am lucky, I will find a pool or tube, otherwise I will have to dodge around the three cavern layers in between me and the good stuff.  Make a forge room.

Now I can start making housing with beds made from wood bought from caravans, with stone crafts, instruments, toys, and mugs.

Edit: Fixed typos.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 05:23:40 pm by slink »
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Nil Eyeglazed

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 06:43:21 pm »

It can actually be really difficult to play a no-military fortress.  It's not that traps don't work, it's just that they don't work perfectly.  You've got to have some good pathing manipulation going on to guarantee that they all go through your traps, so you don't have to deal with any survivors.

If you want to mop up, crossbows work better than melee.  Don't even have to open the front door.

I usually find myself making a mess of my areas to begin with, too, but I don't mind, because efficiency leads to parties, and parties lead to friends, and friends lead to stark, raving madness.  I think even beautiful fortresses have to start with an ugly proto-fortress.
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Exlo

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 06:57:47 pm »

 Personally, I don't worry about all the miniature details, my future plans or projects, or anything else in advance aside from my embark site and starting equipment. I just kind of go with the flow. It sometimes ends up coming back to bite me in the rear, but I have much more fun before that inevitable tantrum spiral/magma leak/epic siege/Urist McStupidDwarf that plunges the fort into chaos. Also everyone gets far more exercise hauling my +granite figurines+ to and from the depot! :D
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(name here)

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 07:27:04 pm »

It's important to note that in the current version military skill increases are tied to the student and teacher skills. If you have your guys start out without those it will take forever to get them decently qualified for combat.

My personal fortress designs tend towards outlandishly utilitarian. I have a single massive barracks and dormitory that serves my entire fortress, most of my workshops in a giant room, my magma forges in the depths, the farms, and the stairs to the caverns.  The corpses are stored in coffins arranged in neat rows. Everyone ignores these problems because the dining room is fantastic. Part of the cause for that is that my miners tend to be tied up burrowing towards the center of the earth until it would take so much effort to give individuals rooms that I don't bother. Though now that vampires are in my dormitory habit might be for the best.
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krenshala

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2012, 07:53:55 pm »

It's important to note that in the current version military skill increases are tied to the student and teacher skills. If you have your guys start out without those it will take forever to get them decently qualified for combat.
It will take longer, yes, but by no means is it "forever".  ... unless you consider 18 to 36 months to be "forever".  Oh, you said decent, not legendary ... that would be 6 to 9 months without teacher/student to start with.
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(name here)

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2012, 07:59:53 pm »

My experience is 18-36 to get to proficient, which is where I can generally rely on them to be useful.
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Urist McBeard

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2012, 08:00:56 pm »

It's important to note that in the current version military skill increases are tied to the student and teacher skills. If you have your guys start out without those it will take forever to get them decently qualified for combat.

This.
I always embark with at least 2 teachers, a dodger and shield user, sometimes I'll add more with kicking or striking since weapon skills seem to increase well enough.
Beating down wildlife and sparring can train them pretty well too, but it's easier to train lots of recruits with experienced teachers giving demonstrations. Also, I don't like to micro my military so that I have 10 squads of 2-3 guys, I prefer having 2-3 squads of 10 guys with teachers leading them. Can't wait till Toady implements the Champion.

Fort design wise, I like to have a wall around the entrance to keep stray animals from wandering in, and I can cut wood in relative safety. Just past the entrance is a retracting bridge linked to pressure plates on the far side, so I only have to fight a handful of guys from each ambush/siege. Then barracks/training rooms, then depot. Past that is the rest of the fort. Only thing to watch out for with the bridge'o'death is that you place your barracks a ways down the tunnel from it so your dwarves don't follow runners onto it, since there is a delay with the bridge dropping. It really sucks to lose legendary steel-clad dwarves to your own defenses. As a bonus, you can link the bridge to a lever so you can show it off to the elves!
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Thanatos

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2012, 11:42:56 pm »

I probably should have been more specific about my experience using traps. My point was not that they were somehow not effective. My point was that they, or at least cage traps specifically, were super effective! Almost to the point of detriment to some of the game's inherent "fun": the super cruel combat system.

I also wasn't aware that ores were now far more scarce than they used to be, and I admit that this was probably what did me in for the first fortress! I actually came across some tetrahedrite and could've made some near-useless but better than wood copper equipment to start up a military, but I kept holding out for iron or even tin that I thought I had to be nearby. I know, and I think my first try demonstrated, that I could survive with only a good series of traps and drawbridge, but with 30 idlers in the fortress at any given time, I may as well try and make it with a military instead of with traps.
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Meph

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2012, 01:46:28 am »

I usually wouldnt do this, but you seem to give exceptional feedback, so if you want to increase the learning courve by a few degrees, I'd be happy if you'd try out my mod. I am curious about what someone who hasnt played in a long time will make of it.
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schismatise

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2012, 04:37:37 am »

Figure i'll throw in my 2u.

After many, many, many forts, you eventually come to know the main features your fortress tends to need. For example, if you're heavy on military, a hospital is an early must have. Bedrooms can wait. I use a 3x3 up/down staircase from ground level down to the magma sea (if there's a cavern in the way, i construct the staircase where the rock would have been and then wall around it to keep it safe). This is usually how my level design works:

- Above ground: Training, walled off area, marksdwarf elevated platform / training
- About 8 z-levels below ground level: Meeting hall, prepared food/drink storage and military quarters
- Generally below that: Hospital, water access, hospital storage
- Somewhere in the middle: Sleeping quarters, statue gardens
- Below that: graveyard and tombs
- About 8 z-levels above the magma sea: Workshops and related storage, underground crops (on muddy stone), refuse piles (behind doors)
- Magma sea: Forges & smelters and related storage, stone dump quarry, magma dump zone (behind doors)

Each level is 40x40 max space, with extra staircases in the corners in connected areas (such as multiple levels of housing). If the magma sea is really far down (like, 150 z-levels), then i'll build a secondary meeting hall above the workshops, including quarters for my forge workers.

Anyway, knowing all that, i have my priorities as to what to set up first, and what order to do it in. The variety and associated fun comes from each embark area being slightly different, and i'll shape my designs to the landscape in most cases, just for the fun of it.

Main point that might actually be relevant to you: If you stick all your workshops within a few levels of each other, everything else can be pretty much anywhere. Just stick some prepared food / drink stockpiles near your meeting hall and you're sorted. It can work to have magma-related workshops down in the deep, and other workshops closer to the surface and other areas, but there's always going to be some inevitable crossover causing long distance material collection and such, though a good number of haulers can take care of this np.
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Viscaro

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2012, 05:37:44 am »

Part of the cause for that is that my miners tend to be tied up burrowing towards the center of the earth until it would take so much effort to give individuals rooms that I don't bother.

If you make a bedroom, it will automatically be assigned to whichever dwarf sleeps there first. I only ever manually assign rooms to nobles and legendary dwarves.
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miauw62

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Re: A Few Lessons Learnt After Years of not Playing
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2012, 06:01:37 am »


Your main source of iron will probably be by looting the goblins -

I want to add to this, that you will want to embark in a sedementary layer, that is, not near a volcano or the likes, else the chances for flux are low, and the chances for iron ore are too.
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