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[Phmcw]

An easy and clever way to tackle the issue is let the physical standard for both genders be the same. You'll end up with a few % of actually reliable women fighters while keeping enough to do the labour at home without being sexist.

[Rolan7]

Yeah that seems like the natural position to me.
I've seen some sorta interesting arguments against having 100% equal requirements...  Mainly around the design of the BDUs (too big, apparently?) and the center of mass of the packs (apparently too far back).

But some people are arguing that women shouldn't have to be able to carry male soldiers (200+ pounds) because female soldiers are lighter, and I don't agree with that.  Even if the units are segregated by gender, that introduces problems.  And there are plenty of women who *can* carry men around...

[Bauglir]

Equal requirements for advancement don't necessarily mean that identical equipment is going to be issued. There are obvious reasons to ensure your soldiers are equally well-equipped, which means having equipment reasonably well-suited to them.

[Loud Whispers]

Anyway...  Why *would* women be exempt from a future draft?  It needs a reason, the default should be equal status.

Replacement of people, it's not enough to win you must also have a future, otherwise you just end up like the victorious states in Europe that even in victory were losers
I dunno it's a bit like questioning why doctors are exempt from the draft, you only instigate a draft in total war and in total war you mobilize your resources smart or you solve your overpopulation issue like Russia when everyone eats more bullets than cabbage
Not really sure why the USA has a draft to be honest, no country could touch the North American continent

Wait, noncitizens can serve in the military?  Wtf...
If we're doing that, it really ought to grant citizenship, Roman-style!  Not really joking.

French Foreign Legion very famously gives citizenship for service, Gurkhas a decade ago got citizenship rights I'd say it's a very successful model
America freedom legion soon

An easy and clever way to tackle the issue is let the physical standard for both genders be the same. You'll end up with a few % of actually reliable women fighters while keeping enough to do the labour at home without being sexist.

Well if we're talking standard military during peacetime (well, "peacetime") then this should be the standard and you only ever lower the standard when you need to, you want to have as high standards to begin with that's why it's standards.

But some people are arguing that women shouldn't have to be able to carry male soldiers (200+ pounds) because female soldiers are lighter, and I don't agree with that.

Doesn't matter if you disagree, because more muscle = more strength, lowered standards speak for themselves
Equal standards is cool beans, I don't like people dying for no reason, I like people dying because someone else wanted to be signal even less lol

At any rate I wouldn't support lowered standards or just equal high standards either, though the latter is much preferable outside of the most desperate situations such as when the Gauls were overrun by fucking Romans or the Israelis got dicked by all their very angry neighbours. Nah see, way I see it, if you can't enlist because you fail to meet the physical standards, what if you've got some skills to offset that? Nothing wrong about a 40 year old Leo joining the army I don't see why a younger woman with similar skillsets and more testosterone than an Olympics tennis player wouldn't do as well either
Prolly biggest niche here is that of technical roles; got an engineering degree, are a doc or chaplain? Can't do pull ups? Get on board anyways

[Rolan7]

Anyway...  Why *would* women be exempt from a future draft?  It needs a reason, the default should be equal status.

Replacement of people, it's not enough to win you must also have a future, otherwise you just end up like the victorious states in Europe that even in victory were losers
I dunno it's a bit like questioning why doctors are exempt from the draft, you only instigate a draft in total war and in total war you mobilize your resources smart or you solve your overpopulation issue like Russia when everyone eats more bullets than cabbage
Not really sure why the USA has a draft to be honest, no country could touch the North American continent

I don't really follow that argument, unless polygamy is involved.  Yeah theoretically a war could kill off half the men without impacting the population growth rate, but the remaining men would have to have 2 wives each.

Selective service doesn't necessarily have to be for war, though.  The Israelis use it for prison guards and military police...  I thought I heard some countries use it to recruit aid workers too, but IDK.

Aside, I found a neat quote from the 1981 Supreme Court decision on this issue!

The existence of the combat restrictions clearly indicates the basis for Congress' decision to exempt women from registration. The purpose of registration was to prepare for a draft of combat troops. Since women are excluded from combat, Congress concluded that they would not be needed in the event of a draft, and therefore decided not to register them.

Now that women aren't excluded from combat, that decision would need to be revisited...  If there's still an argument for exempting women.

Wait, noncitizens can serve in the military?  Wtf...
If we're doing that, it really ought to grant citizenship, Roman-style!  Not really joking.

French Foreign Legion very famously gives citizenship for service, Gurkhas a decade ago got citizenship rights I'd say it's a very successful model
America freedom legion soon

You know, I actually mistook "noncitizen" as "illegal alien"?  Which is pretty bigoted I think, my bad.
Though not completely off...  Obama did try to allow illegal aliens into the military back in May.  Which I totally support as long as it quickly results in citizenship.  I have no problem with illegal aliens, just the fact that they're illegal... Military service seems like a great justification for granting citizenship (and pardon).

Of course the GOP shot it down hard

But some people are arguing that women shouldn't have to be able to carry male soldiers (200+ pounds) because female soldiers are lighter, and I don't agree with that.

Doesn't matter if you disagree, because more muscle = more strength, lowered standards speak for themselves
Equal standards is cool beans, I don't like people dying for no reason, I like people dying because someone else wanted to be signal even less lol

At any rate I wouldn't support lowered standards or just equal high standards either, though the latter is much preferable outside of the most desperate situations such as when the Gauls were overrun by fucking Romans or the Israelis got dicked by all their very angry neighbours. Nah see, way I see it, if you can't enlist because you fail to meet the physical standards, what if you've got some skills to offset that? Nothing wrong about a 40 year old Leo joining the army I don't see why a younger woman with similar skillsets and more testosterone than an Olympics tennis player wouldn't do as well either
Prolly biggest niche here is that of technical roles; got an engineering degree, are a doc or chaplain? Can't do pull ups? Get on board anyways

My position, and I could certainly be wrong, is that the standards aren't that terribly high to begin with.  I've had family get through who were...  Not that fit.
Of course they expect more from people in certain roles.  In some (many?) cases the standards may be so high that no women qualify.  That's fine with me.

[Frumple]

Not actually illegal, rol. Honestly kinda' important to remember that, considering it's the reason undocumented immigrants don't have a guarantee to a trial or due process or whathaveyou. If what they were doing was actually criminal, the situation would be considerably more hilarious.

[Baffler]

That's a bit like using "shooting a gun isn't illegal!" as a defense at your murder trial though. No, being here while not being a citizen isn't illegal, but the things that make the distinction between undocumented immigrants and tourists are. Things like sneaking past customs and dodging taxes are not looked kindly upon.

[Frumple]

Very many don't dodge taxes, for what it's worth. Undocumented immigrants still pay sales taxes and a great many of them pay income taxes as well (they just don't get any refunds while doing so :V), and so on, and so forth. They're a pretty substantial net tax gain, from what I recall.

Customs is a different thing, but last I checked most of the penalties there, especially for the stuff the folks in question tend to bring in, are pretty minor. _{Also I'm pretty sure roughly 99% of the people complaining about illegal immigrants give precisely zero shits about custom dodging. Barring how to get away with it themselves, anyway.}

Plus there's a pretty sizable chunk of undocumented immigrants that basically were tourists, or folks with an expired visa or so on. It's not all custom dodging and whatnot.

Either way, it's relatively irrelevant. The people in question generally aren't charged with crimes at all, so far as I'm aware -- they're specifically kept as far away from th'actual criminal justice system as possible. Gods forbid they actually get due legal attention, heh. Can't even be arsed to get the resources together to process folks, nevermind scrounging together the legal fees involved with something like that.

[Baffler]

Well yeah, because it's a far easier and more expedient solution to just send them back to wherever they came from than stuff our already overcrowded justice system full of people who aren't even permanent residents. From what I understand, it's quite a difficult journey to make and a lot of them don't try a second time unless they get put back in Mexico. Someone deported to South America or across the ocean has probably lost their opportunity.

And the point isn't that the stuff they've brought in wouldn't pass customs, it's the fact that they've circumvented customs and immigration, and the other border controls, entirely. Or overstayed their original welcome. What they may or may not have had on them is irrelevant.

[Frumple]

*waggles hand* The border violation, maybe. I do actually hear that one, at least in regards to the southern border. I'd just never actually heard anyone comment on the customs avoidance aspect of it before, heh, and I get to hear entirely too much kvetching about undocumented immigrants (though generally coached in significantly more racist terminology, ha.).

... plus, let's be honest, unless the dialogue is significantly different up north, no one seems to actually give a shit about our substantial undocumented non-latino population. Lapsed visas and overstayed tourist trips seem to matter a lot less for them, for some odd reason.

[Baffler]

It's not significantly different up here in the north, just more muted. But unlike most people, I'm concerned with the principle of the thing (flaunting American law in order to exploit its prosperity) as opposed to some strange idea of racial purity or watering down our culture. We've exported our culture well enough that immigrants from a lot of places come pre-integrated, and the US has historically been pretty good at bringing new stuff into our common tradition. You need not look any further than the now-ubiquitous Mexican restaurants if you need proof of that.

I do think it should be easier to get citizenship, but I don't think we're morally obligated to accept as many yokels as are willing to sneak in as some people seem to. We have too many unskilled workers as it is.

[ArKFallen]

... plus, let's be honest, unless the dialogue is significantly different up north, no one seems to actually give a shit about our substantial undocumented non-latino population. Lapsed visas and overstayed tourist trips seem to matter a lot less for them, for some odd reason.

Probably is racism for the individuals but on the government end those people (lapsed/overstayed) have already shown to have money and are hopefully spending what they earned elsewhere here. It is also more expensive to get rid of them unless they are Canadian.

[Loud Whispers]

I don't really follow that argument, unless polygamy is involved.  Yeah theoretically a war could kill off half the men without impacting the population growth rate, but the remaining men would have to have 2 wives each.

If you think sex doesn't happen outside of marriage you're adorably naive and I hope you are never spoilt by this cheeki breeki Roman world
Women outnumber men = sexy time for few men many time
Post WWI Europe was a degenerate debauchery with population booms galore for sexy time to commence as women vastly outnumbered men
Post WWII Europe was a degenerate debauchery with population booms galore for sexy time to commence as women vastly outnumbered men
Presumably post-WWIII will be a degenerate debauchery but with no population booms as the fallout will sterilize everyone

Selective service doesn't necessarily have to be for war, though.  The Israelis use it for prison guards and military police...  I thought I heard some countries use it to recruit aid workers too, but IDK.

Neat
Just do national service then

You know, I actually mistook "noncitizen" as "illegal alien"?  Which is pretty bigoted I think, my bad.
Though not completely off...  Obama did try to allow illegal aliens into the military back in May.  Which I totally support as long as it quickly results in citizenship.  I have no problem with illegal aliens, just the fact that they're illegal... Military service seems like a great justification for granting citizenship (and pardon).

Yeah allowing illegal immigrants into your army, what could go wrong

Of course the GOP shot it down hard

Neat

My position, and I could certainly be wrong, is that the standards aren't that terribly high to begin with.  I've had family get through who were...  Not that fit.

Females standards are half men's standards and the failure standard much lower (you'd have to do 95% worse than a male already at half the standard of the male standard)
Though you're right the standards only really cover someone being in regular shape unless you're trying to get into some elite finagling

Of course they expect more from people in certain roles.  In some (many?) cases the standards may be so high that no women qualify.  That's fine with me.

I don't really care as long as no one is being sent to do things they're not capable of doing
I mean the USA is the country that has seriously let people become firefighters despite failing the physical tests because they are women, so that when murricans get killed you can have the consolation of being the current year and crispy lol

[Truean]

http://news.yahoo.com/teen-who-worked-in-corner-shop-for-10-weeks-to-170210642.html

and boycott....

Too many people working for nothing. Sick of it.

[Loud Whispers]

A fundraising website has since been set up for the 15-year-old.

There's a red flag