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[Antsan]

said by the guy in whose country and continent in general such a thing would be greatly desirable, huh

We already have that (and we've got Frontex, which is more). I don't see it as desirable but stupid. It won't help with what they want to achieve (keeping fugitives out) and I don't think what it is meant to achieve (keeping fugitives out) is desirable.
I also don't think it's desirable to keep people out who aren't actually fugitives. We're rich. I'm poor by German standards and still rich by theirs (as evidenced by the fact that I can have a habit of reading this thread daily). We can take them. Most of them actually do want to work and if there's no work for them I don't really get why that would be a problem in the first place.

gee golly wilkers, have you not noted we're still running on this admittedly dumbfuck concept of needing a job to live? do i need to point you to the fact that our own unemployment, and i mean eu-wide, is over 10%?

i'm not even talking about fucking over our own to take in some randoms from around the globe, because for all if i know there is more virtue in them than in some random from our own member countries, and of course the youth will hopefully have some sort of family to support them; but telling people to go right ahead and jump into a job market that really, really does not need more people in it and hope for the best is naive at best and malicious at worst, as they will need to source their sustinence from someplace or just die - latter of which they could do perfectly fine at home

or are you saying that people who spent enough to start a small business in their country of origin smuggling themselves over have enough funds left to create jobs whereever it is they end up landing? because sure, that'd be great, but i don't exactly see it being reality

giving everyone a basic income would be great too, but that too i don't see being reality anytime soon

My whole point is that the fear and hatred that many people without job, power and/or money direct towards immigrants maybe should be directed elsewhere. Stopping the wave of fugitives sounds harder and less desirable than changing how our society works.

[ArKFallen]

My whole point is that the fear and hatred that many people without job, power and/or money direct towards immigrants maybe should be directed elsewhere. Stopping the wave of fugitives sounds harder and less desirable than changing how our society works.

On the one hand you use law enforcement to try to forcibly relocate people if those people fall in a particular category.
On the other hand you use social or law pressures to try to gradually alter people's perceptions of people who fall in a particular category.

Most governments already have methods in place to do one of these effectively.

[Antsan]

Said differently: Our society is fuel to problems elsewhere that make people fugitives. As long as we act the way we do, there will be fugitives. And as history has already shown, as long as you're not a hellhole, fugitives will come, no matter what the laws say. And turning Europe into a hellhole hardly seems like a desirable option, right?
Getting the fugitives to stay away is an impossible task.

[LordSlowpoke]

Said differently: Our society is fuel to problems elsewhere that make people fugitives. As long as we act the way we do, there will be fugitives.

explain how people should act in order to not create fugitives

in light of this post the previous ones go down to, we made people's lives bad (with what?) and we should make their lives better (by taking them into europe)

do i need to point you to the fact that our own unemployment, and i mean eu-wide, is over 10%?

I have to ask: do you think this is unusually bad?

mainiac's probably going to bust in and smash shit like kool-aid man, but 10% unemployment is generally undesirable when my own eyes come into it

between 3 to 5% is how a healthy system should be operating

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Presumably he is speaking of global capitalism and imperialism.

[Arx]

do i need to point you to the fact that our own unemployment, and i mean eu-wide, is over 10%?

I have to ask: do you think this is unusually bad?

mainiac's probably going to bust in and smash shit like kool-aid man, but 10% unemployment is generally undesirable when my own eyes come into it

between 3 to 5% is how a healthy system should be operating

Bad? Sure. Unusually so? Not so much.

[ArKFallen]

Getting the fugitives to stay away is an impossible task.

Which is why is far easier to build a government supported industry around finding and expelling them if they don't meet some criteria.

Said differently: (a)Our society is fuel to problems elsewhere that make people fugitives. (b)As long as we act the way we do, there will be fugitives.

a&b are true but there are a couple of things that are missing there.
(c)Resources are naturally distributed unequally on this planet and so are the basic resource requirements to live.
(d)Much of modern human society is dependent on resources beyond the local.
(e)It requires resources to move resources.
(f)People innately require resources.
(g)People are required to make a society function and different functions(and efficiency of them) require different resources.
(h)War is often motivated by lack of a resource.
So there will still be fugitives regardless and thus a method of managing that influx will be required.

As far as the fear and hatred of immigrants by those currently screwed by economics, it is ubiquitous. That is not an "our society" thing unless you mean human society at large.

[Frumple]

... can we at least agree that "Shoot them until they stop coming" is both unworkable and heinous, just to get that out of the way and sideline LSP/LW's apparent preferred end state?

'Bout the only $0.02 I'd have to add is that I rather imagine folks in general would be doing a better job of things if all that money being spent on detainment, deterrent, and abuse, was instead spent on integration, processing, and maybe not being complete fuckwits abroad. Might help out a titch, I'unno. It'd be nice to see someone actually try one of these days, in any case.

[Helgoland]

So what's the general opinion regarding processing centers on the southern shore of the Mediterranean? Apart from impracticability due to civil war, political instability etc. It seems like a good way to keep refugees out of harm's way, since they wouldn't have to use these  rickety boats, and it would enable the EU to simply claim that all people on these boats are illegals anyway and tow them back to where they came from.

[Loud Whispers]

As long as I don't forget later to make a more detailed response:

... can we at least agree that "Shoot them until they stop coming" is both unworkable and heinous, just to get that out of the way and sideline LSP/LW's apparent preferred end state?

My preferred end state is simple checks at the airports and bullets for the smugglers beyond the channel, as once they're in Italy they're either going to Germany or Calais. I see zero impracticality or moral ambiguity in regards to killing human traffickers, who are plain and simple scum. I'm not talking about death penalty as they do in the east, more simple use of lethal force to disrupt trafficking operations in north africa and turkey. Dead smugglers never contributed to their country, their people, my country or my people - they are of value only to themselves, sending people off without their money on a rickety boat they don't care about for futures quite shite providing they don't just die in the med or get electrocuted in Calais. And I really see it completely odd when all of Europe had a working system, has now reached levels of immigration that beat WWII after abandoning such systems, and so many see it more feasible to exacerbate a broken system at worst or just spread the problem around Europe as the Swedes or Germans want. I understand the end goal is to kill the nationstate and replace it with the EU but you can't kill the nationstate and leave a dead Europe hahaa
Oh yeah, almost forgot - laws against human trafficking are nearly nonexistent in Africa and Arabia. Israel, Oman, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates have some, but those are countries where they have to neurotically check their borders for people coming in not out. Used to be that the old dictators would just run around murdering traffickers but now they're all dead, so whatever new government group is composed of people not too fond of eating hearts and swinging machetes will probably have to sit down with some Yuropoors and figure something out. Death penalty or life seems appropriate.

So what's the general opinion regarding processing centers on the southern shore of the Mediterranean? Apart from impracticability due to civil war, political instability etc. It seems like a good way to keep refugees out of harm's way, since they wouldn't have to use these  rickety boats, and it would enable the EU to simply claim that all people on these boats are illegals anyway and tow them back to where they came from.

On the practical side western militaries are capable. The EU can already claim all the people on the boats are illegal anyways so that doesn't change. All that changes is that there is an incentive to not buy a boat as from the migrant perspective, you can claim asylum without paying out money to traffickers. From the Italian perspective you'll be able to vet who is a militant, who is fleeing war, who is seeking money or who is facing murder at home. Should finally allow for priority to go to Syrians facing death or worse by ISIS over someone who just wants a better job.

[Helgoland]

So what's the general opinion regarding processing centers on the southern shore of the Mediterranean? Apart from impracticability due to civil war, political instability etc. It seems like a good way to keep refugees out of harm's way, since they wouldn't have to use these  rickety boats, and it would enable the EU to simply claim that all people on these boats are illegals anyway and tow them back to where they came from.

On the practical side western militaries are capable. The EU can already claim all the people on the boats are illegal anyways so that doesn't change. All that changes is that there is an incentive to not buy a boat as from the migrant perspective, you can claim asylum without paying out money to traffickers. From the Italian perspective you'll be able to vet who is a militant, who is fleeing war, who is seeking money or who is facing murder at home. Should finally allow for priority to go to Syrians facing death or worse by ISIS over someone who just wants a better job.

Right now there's proper refugees on these boats as well - that's the main thing that would change after implementing such a system. You'd have people like me supporting boat towing, not just people like you

[Frumple]

My preferred end state is simple checks at the airports and bullets for the smugglers beyond the channel, as once they're in Italy they're either going to Germany or Calais. I see zero impracticality or moral ambiguity in regards to killing human traffickers, who are plain and simple scum. I'm not talking about death penalty as they do in the east, more simple use of lethal force to disrupt trafficking operations in north africa and turkey. Dead smugglers never contributed to their country, their people, my country or my people - they are of value only to themselves, sending people off without their money on a rickety boat they don't care about for futures quite shite providing they don't just die in the med or get electrocuted in Calais.

... so drastically increase the chances of the smugglers being even worse sorts of people. Double-down on the likelihood of hostage situations and atrocities beforehand. Give massive incentive to smugglers to start resorting to violence when caught. Make sure that the trip and arranging it is even more dangerous for the refugees and immigrants, while doing jack-all to reduce the pressures causing them to flee their originating point.

I've never quite understood why anti-immigration folks seem so damned and determined to escalate from just bloody killing them to doing their best to make sure the people are tortured and then killed. It's like the identified chain of cause and effect stops one stop out and refuses to go any further, presumably in the name of some twisted (almost entirely unrealistic) conceptualization of deterrent.

"Sure, I surrounded their yard in explosives and incendiaries to try to get them to stop smoking, but they're the ones that caused the fire that set it all off. Clearly it's their fault the neighborhood burned down, not mine."

[LordSlowpoke]

you see m8

you know what sparked most of the immigration europe is currently enjoying?

american military adventures(tm)

asking us to pick up your slack is pretty ridiculous, don't you think? but then we don't have the entire atlantic between us and the problem, so we can't act all confused about it as it's right in our faces

[Frumple]

And the adventures were primarily caused by good ol' european imperialism. We're all in this together, chum.

[LordSlowpoke]

nobody asked you to fund anything from the mujahedin to the syrian rebels

france for instance is keeping the post-colonial mess together, mali being a recent example, you only serve to wreck things further