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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1285781 times)

SirQuiamus

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9705 on: March 26, 2015, 05:34:31 pm »

I can, yes. The alternative is inane - the law would create a legal obligation for each person to explain why they treat people differently. Wanna fuck your wife? First you gotta explain to a judge why you don't want to fuck your brother-in-law. It's impossible to create an exhaustive whitelist of permissible distinctions, because at some point you're going to get down to personal life experience and "I just don't like the guy" is both a poor legal argument, and a perfectly valid reason for not inviting somebody to your wedding. The only reason the law can be held to a higher standard is because it's both finite and subject to judicial review, and the reason it should be held to a higher standard is because of the vast power government wields over a person's daily life.

There might be some interesting semantic confusion going on around here...
According to the Oxford Dictionary of English, "discrimination" is either (1) "unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people" or (2) "recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another." What I meant by "discrimination" was limited to the first sense of the word.     
Once again, you are talking about sense 2 of the word "discrimination," while I am talking exclusively about sense 1. Not fucking someone or not inviting someone to your wedding is certainly not an example of "unjust treatment," since it's a "private matter" (it has to do with your own rights as much as the rights of the other person) and any reason is a valid reason in such cases. However, publicly declaring that people of a certain category are unwanted in a certain shop (or bus, school, train, plane, whatever) is hardly a private matter, especially if said restrictions can be enforced without breaking the law.             
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Bauglir

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9706 on: March 26, 2015, 05:58:33 pm »

Fine, let's say you happen to have an irrational hatred of people with green hair, and you refuse to associate with them in your capacity as a private citizen. Should the law compel you to do otherwise? It's clearly unjust treatment, since they've done nothing to deserve being treated that way. I fail to see how "private matters" are relevant to that definition, honestly. You can treat somebody pretty unjustly in the privacy of your own home (see: child abuse).

Besides, lots of small businesses, especially freelance workers, have no clear line between their personal decisions and their business decisions. What if, as a business owner, you decide to hire one of two equally-qualified applicants because you like one's personality better. Does the second have grounds to sue because you discriminated on the basis of personality? Should you even be required to defend your choice? What's the actual legal line you'd draw here?

You're imagining an ideal world where the law is implemented and obeyed as you expect. That's a fantasy. If we lived in that world, "Don't be a douchebag, and pay your taxes" would be the whole of the law. Ask yourself how what you're thinking of could be abused. Here, that's by making private citizens answerable for a swath of decisions that can be arbitrary without implying any particular evil. We have specific protected classes because there are situations where society has made clear that it's going to be a bag of dicks to some group for no adequately explained reason, and there's so much harm that stepping in to help will do less harm than letting it be. Because it's clear that something unacceptable is going on. We can quibble about what classifications ought to be on that list, and I'd certainly agree that it could use some expansion, but let's not lose sight of why there's a list at all.
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At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

SirQuiamus

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9707 on: March 26, 2015, 07:01:46 pm »

@Bauglir
I do know that we are not living in an ideal world, and I do know that vague and idealistic laws function in spite of themselves, not in virtue of their effectiveness. Perhaps it is impossible to formulate a law that is both all-inclusive and purposeful -- no, scratch that: It is definitely impossible, period. I'd like to discuss the ramifications of this shortcoming, but I'm too bloody tired right now. (And in any case I need to stop being a simpleton before I can properly discuss weighty legal matters.) 
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Putnam

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9708 on: March 26, 2015, 07:04:23 pm »

No, it's probably possible, mathematically speaking. You just have to include pretty much every possible loophole.

...So possible, yes, that's about as charitable as I'll go.

SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9709 on: March 26, 2015, 08:41:10 pm »

I suppose that I'll be a black sheep and say that I've got no problem with a Indiana's law. A private business owner should have the right to refuse service to someone for whatever damn reason he chooses, be it gender, intoxication level, or choice of payment. No one is going to starve because of intolerant business owners, especially with public concern and the free market both pointing the other direction.


Freedom to run  business trumps the concern of equal access to non-public services.

I grew up in rural Indiana and can say with confidence that there are likely hundreds of people in this state who will now have to drive 45 minutes or more to buy food or receive any kind of basic service.  I'm just thankful that the openly LGBT friends I have here all live in cities, where it's unlikely that all their options will be shut against them.

Also, the bill was passed by a large majority with the knowledge that the state will be losing tens of millions of dollars to businesses protesting the law.  Gencon will likely be moving once their contract runs out, and that alone was a huge source of revenue for Indianapolis.  (And there goes literally the only thing I would miss about living here)  The city had spent millions on upgrading various facilities to better support the con, because the returns were worth it.  As MSH said, ideology trumped business interests, because they're proven their willingness to toss that away for the ability to harm people they don't like.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 08:47:42 pm by SalmonGod »
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Truean

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9710 on: March 26, 2015, 11:19:29 pm »

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=43236.msg6121774#msg6121774

Please no quoting, as per usual. Thank you.

I'm really sick of being right and telling people I told you so in regards to the thoughts behind those who passed this anti gay Indiana law. I've been saying this is what a significant number of people want for years. I've been told I'm crazy and paranoid, etc. Not paranoid, I'm perceptive, because this, tragically, is my life....

Really, I'd just like to not be judged badly for being how I really am when it should have no bearing on anything. I don't bother anybody in real life, but I'm not afforded that courtesy in return. Fabulous. 
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martinuzz

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9711 on: March 27, 2015, 04:27:36 am »

On the bright side, you can now apply for political asylum in the Netherlands, come live in Amsterdam and smoke weed all day
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9712 on: March 27, 2015, 11:25:33 am »

So, can someone point out if I have missed anything here.

A law has been passed, which allows people to withhold service form someone if they so wish - which in itself sounds reasonable. However, is the big elephant in the room the fact that this law allows them to do so on religious grounds (so basically, knowing the US conservative Christian crowd, means turning anyone away who does not meet their flawed and narrow definition of "normal"), which unless I am mistaken is against the US constitution? Heck, how are they going to even judge a client based on first impression/appearance alone? Will it be "you look gay so I am not serving you"? Do those who formed this law not know how stupid that sounds? Does the Christian faith not teach that you should love thy enemy, hate the sin but not the sinner, and that god is the only one who can judge? What.... what complete and utter bullshit.

I am pretty sure that if a Muslim refused to serve someone who was Christian on religious grounds, people (as in the right wing Christians who "like" this law) would be having embolisms. Yet, it is OK for a Christian to refuse service to someone based on faith? Sheesh. I am sure someone has probably already pointed out the spooky parallels with racial segregation laws...

Maybe we should let this law stand, and let market forces take over. Would the businesses that do not restrict their client base do better business and out compete those who will only serve certain people? Before long, all businesses end up serving everyone in order to compete, and those that do not go bust. 

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9713 on: March 27, 2015, 11:46:03 am »

A law has been passed, which allows people to withhold service form someone if they so wish - which in itself sounds reasonable. However, is the big elephant in the room the fact that this law allows them to do so on religious grounds (so basically, knowing the US conservative Christian crowd, means turning anyone away who does not meet their flawed and narrow definition of "normal"), which unless I am mistaken is against the US constitution?

It depends a lot on your viewpoint. This source isn't all that great but it's what I could find. Technically, the wording of the 14th Amendment makes this law unconstitutional, but that's only if you consider "legal protection under the law" to be protection from things other than state tyranny. As sexual orientation is not currently a protected class the likelihood of that is lessened.
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Heck, how are they going to even judge a client based on first impression/appearance alone? Will it be "you look gay so I am not serving you"?
Could be. I'm sure gay people also go out to dinner together.
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Do those who formed this law not know how stupid that sounds? Does the Christian faith not teach that you should love thy enemy, hate the sin but not the sinner, and that god is the only one who can judge? What.... what complete and utter bullshit.
The Christian faith teaches that man whom lies with main is an abomination, to confront sin wherever it may be found, and to live in the righteousness of God's will. Hippie Jesus is kind of a weak position to take.
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I am pretty sure that if a Muslim refused to serve someone who was Christian on religious grounds, people (as in the right wing Christians who "like" this law) would be having embolisms. Yet, it is OK for a Christian to refuse service to someone based on faith? Sheesh. I am sure someone has probably already pointed out the spooky parallels with racial segregation laws...
The answer to this is that there just aren't proportionally a lot of Muslims in America, and even fewer in locations that would push a law like this. I would also say that Muslims would generally back this law for the same reason Christians do, but that was after the mass political shift that happened on 9/11. Before that American Muslims were a strongly dependable Republican voting block.

You will also occasionally get far-right people who argue that freedom of religion was intended to be freedom of Christian religions only and so only applies to them, and that the Constitution was copied out of Deuteronomy, but they're mostly irrelevant.
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Maybe we should let this law stand, and let market forces take over. Would the businesses that do not restrict their client base do better business and out compete those who will only serve certain people? Before long, all businesses end up serving everyone in order to compete, and those that do not go bust.
Again, this chain of thought has gone undemonstrated, and has strong counter-examples in the pre-civil rights South.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9714 on: March 27, 2015, 11:50:01 am »

-snip-

Thank you. As someone who lives in the good old liberal EU, the "need for" and passing of this law baffles me. Are we going to see lots of social conflict as a result of it where wrongful discrimination is "justified" using this law or will it be struck down by some higher body?

Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9715 on: March 27, 2015, 11:51:45 am »

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Arx

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9716 on: March 27, 2015, 01:15:44 pm »


Do those who formed this law not know how stupid that sounds? Does the Christian faith not teach that you should love thy enemy, hate the sin but not the sinner, and that god is the only one who can judge? What.... what complete and utter bullshit.
The Christian faith teaches that man whom lies with main is an abomination, to confront sin wherever it may be found, and to live in the righteousness of God's will. Hippie Jesus is kind of a weak position to take.
The Christian faith teaches that the greatest commandment is to love God and the second greatest is to love your neighbour as yourself. The Christian faith teaches that only a sinless person may judge and condemn others. The Christian faith teaches that true religion that is pure and faultless in the eyes of God is to help those in need. The Christian faith teaches that homosexuality is no worse a sin than calling someone a fool.

There is no Biblical justification for this law. Please don't make it sound like Christianity is at fault here. The problem is with bigots, it's just a justification.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 01:55:43 pm by Arx »
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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9717 on: March 27, 2015, 01:46:51 pm »

I think your quote ate your reply, Arx. And while your particular interpretation of Christianity may not endorse homophobia, all too many other peoples do.Let's not argue about it here, though - that's what the religion and philosophy thread is for.
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Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9718 on: March 27, 2015, 01:53:34 pm »

That's not what the religion thread is for - arguments like that usually end in tears, and occasionally in locked threads.
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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9719 on: March 27, 2015, 02:00:42 pm »

Nonsense! I'm sure it will be fiiiine. And if he doesn't want to engage with me, he's free to opt out. I won't tell the internet police, I swear!
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