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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1290446 times)

Angle

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9435 on: February 09, 2015, 12:06:44 am »

Seems like an opportune time to throw this thing in here

According to this article, there is an very progressive little society that has sprung up in Syria and is holding its own amidst all the turmoil there.  The author compares it to the anarchist movement in revolutionary Spain or the Zapatistas.  Don't know anything about it beyond what's in the link, but I bet someone here will know more and have something interesting to say.

Duuuuuuude...

I'll admit, I haven't even finished reading the article yet, but that looks AWESOME.
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Solifuge

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9436 on: February 09, 2015, 12:19:57 am »

-snep-
... can see where the appeal is, but the thought of that sort of societal organization always makes me kinda' melancholy. It would mean... well, basically that our species is functionally dead. There'd be no great projects, no great innovations -- certainly none that lasted very long -- no... anything, really. We'd never reach the stars, never get off Earth. It would be stagnation. Pretty stagnation, and maybe fairly happy, but it would effectively be species level suicide. Any chance we'd have of being more than what we currently are would be gone.

Personally, I couldn't live with that. We've got hella' problems nowadays, but at least there's some sort of slim chance of escape in there, eventually, y'know? Slim hope is better than none.

Hmm... I'unno. It's never existed in a first-world or high-tech context to be able to say for sure, but I could imagine a modern, nation-sized collectivist society like that still allowing for things like Skyscrapers and Space Missions. If your agriculture/industry/energy production is heavily automated and productive enough to free up most people from having to do it (robotics + modern farming tools), communication is fast enough and information is well-distributed (internet?), you could have teams attempting to go to the moon, or trying to outdo eachother's architectural explots, for the hell of it. Or just doing whatever else they wanted, like putting time in to cure diseases, because it is something important that they think they could do well.

Obvious elephant in the room is creating the infrastructure to support that. I think it needs something "Benevolent Robot Overlords" tier.

EDIT:
Seems like an opportune time to throw this thing in here

Thanks for this link. I'm reading this pretty hard right now.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 12:25:33 am by Solifuge »
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Frumple

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9437 on: February 09, 2015, 12:36:45 am »

Yeah... it would need serious bootstrapping from some other system to be viable as anything but a return-to-wilderness sort of thing. Maybe after that point, sure -- with significant automation and AI-Overlord tier technology, each tribe would basically be a pantheon unto itself in terms of creative capability -- but without something like that... there's significant issues.

By the time we've reached that point, though, most of my concerns regarding potential progress would be addressed. We'd already have the capability of, if nothing else, world-ship type stuff or whatev', probably immortality of some sort or another, etc., etc. We would have effectively won the metaphorical game -- anything that comes after that's not actively destroying our capability is just free-play mode, y'know?
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SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9438 on: February 09, 2015, 01:23:13 am »

I don't think we need to be that advanced.  I think modern mass communications is enough.  We just need to build the right tool to apply our capabilities to the job.

I've written about this on the board a bit before, and I think Angle would remember it... but I think social media is the unwitting skeletal prototype for the egalitarian government of the future.

The whole problem Solifuge and Frumple are going back and forth over is how egalitarian society can only exist on small scale, because it's limited by the ability for everyone to communicate their abilities and needs to each other to organize efficiently.  Mass communications completely removes that restriction.

I think it's a major struggle that's taking place within modern society right now.  Old power structures are cracking down on and subverting the potential of the internet purposefully, because they already realize it's making them obsolete.  Just look at how much of a witch hunt for anarchism there is in the U.S. right now, even though it's not a widespread political affiliation at all, and there's only been one significant instance of terrorism by a self-identified anarchist in the last 100 years (the Unabomber).  It's because they know that the stage is set for anarchism to become truly legitimate.  All it will take at this point is the right memetic spark.

In the past, efficient organizing relied on hierarchy.  Information could be funneled upwards through chains of command, until it encountered the appropriate decision-making node to send an instructive response back down through the chain.

Now flat organizational structures are capable of responding to information faster than hierarchies can.  While information and instructions are flowing up and down through a hierarchy, a flat organizational model can simply disperse information instantly to all participants and respond.  We're already seeing this with the way protesters are able to outwit law enforcement.  Direct action groups can pretty successfully outmaneuver police units on the streets, unless communications hubs are raided and cell phone service shut down to the area.  Similarly, there have been many examples of startlingly successful efforts to solve difficult problems by crowd sourcing collaborative efforts, instead of relying solely on traditionally organized groups of experts.  And online file sharing is a futuristic egalitarian economy, whose models can be (and somewhat have been) altered and expanded to cover more than just information.

I mentioned social media.  So imagine something like this.  You have a profile on this website, where you offer your location, skills, and available resources.  You can post wants, needs, or suggestions to this website, and those things will become visible to or ping relevant members of the community within a suitable distance of your location, or the location relevant to your suggestion.  This scales to the scope of the project suggested, and reacts to the urgency of the request.

So let's say you have a medical emergency.  You use your cell phone to transmit this, and people with the relevant skills within a reasonable distance will be alerted to your emergency.  Or you post that a road nearby is in need of repair.  This will become visible to everyone in the community, who second the request or disagree with it, and those with relevant skills/resources within a certain area will be notified of it.  Maybe you want to propose that your city needs a bicycle trail, and that will spawn a discussion board and poll visible to the everyone within a certain distance to have the opportunity to chime in their stance and be involved in planning.  Or let's say you propose something like "Let's cure the fuck out of cancer".  I don't see why global projects couldn't be generated the same way.  They'd just need their own infrastructure to connect the right people and facilitate cooperation.

And if motivation is a concern, you can have a system of personal thanks and endorsements, whereby you can credit someone on their profile when they've done something for you or your community, and verify that they have the skills they say they have.  I don't think it's too optimistic of me to believe that people would go out of their way to help people that have a decorated profile, marking them as a valuable member of the community.  There could be some meritocracy, without all the desperation and coercion of capitalism.

The idea is we can do all the organization that keeps the modern world operating without hierarchy.  We just need to turn the technology that we have now into the proper tool and embrace it.

Edit:  A little cleaning because I typed this in a hurry, as it's late and I need to get to bed soon :[
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 01:35:02 am by SalmonGod »
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alexandertnt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9439 on: February 09, 2015, 01:43:44 am »

It's maybe not possible to implement on a state or continental scale, but the system I find most beautiful and am kind of in love with are those pre-governmental forms of egalitarianism you can find in tribal cultures. They rely on small populations to function, since everyone kind of has to know everyone else personally... but there are no leadership positions, everyone contributes whatever they can to the group, and everyone gets whatever they need and can't produce on their own from their neighbors. Currency doesn't have to exist because commodities aren't owned; the only debt that exists is which person needs what thing... and when goods are scarce, individuals determine how to divy things up or address the shortage. It's got a collectivist vibe, without all the Fierce Nationalism or Despotism, and it warms my heart. Downsides are that you're limited to what your neighbors and you can produce, and the skills you have; if you need treatment for an illness, better hope one of them knows enough medicine to get you a working cure, etc.

I don't think it's really fair to associate all that with "tribal cultures". Many of these things are just the best bits cherry picked from assorted tribal cultures, and further idealised by western media. Not saying that they aren't positive attributes though.



I would question the need, or even the effectiveness, of widespread automation. Call me a cynic, but I would have to wonder if 3x the efficiency would result in 1/3 of the work, or people buying 3x the number of iToys. IMO we already are already efficient enough to drastically reduce the ammount of involuntary work we have to do, but often instead opt to buy a new car, or something. To me, I think a very different economical system, and a very different mindset, would be more useful than more technology.
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Solifuge

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9440 on: February 09, 2015, 02:41:36 am »

-snyp-
Basically this.

I was being flippant and covering my ass with the Benevolent Robot Overlords comment. I agree with your argument, but it was a bolder one than I was willing to make here, especially without having done the research, preparing the examples, and mustering the Sisu to defend it if challenged. It's already possible technologically, and it really is already having early experiments. Obviously, the cultural hardware of a system like that (the ideas, the specific system/tools themselves) do not presently exist and would need inventing, but the principals and infrastructure are here. And yeah, there is a quiet revolution of distributed, peer-to-peer, non-hierarchically organized, internet-driven obsolescence and subversion happening right now, on many (all?) fronts: government and revolt, media distribution, crowd-sourced information and entertainment, etc. It's pretty much the most exciting and terrifying thing happening right now, and it's not really getting the attention it probably will 30 years from now.

I really like that notion, though. Impartial, distributed, popular government, mediated by tech similar to social media, is basically Democracy 2.0... true democratization of resources and skills. It represents a practical modern egalitarian system, based on actually decentralizing the government. I don't know what kind of architects it would take, but that cause has my sword/axe/etc.

-snarf-
Yeah, I was worried I was going to get a Noble Savage card thrown on that. I'm using the word Tribe to mean "Stateless Society", not "innocent peoples that live in nature as God intended". And just as an aside, I'm aware of the shortcomings of living in a historical pre-state/tribal society when it comes to quality of life, access to resources, etc., and I know I wouldn't like it! >_o
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 02:49:59 am by Solifuge »
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Antsan

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9441 on: February 09, 2015, 08:02:45 am »

Seems like an opportune time to throw this thing in here

According to this article, there is an very progressive little society that has sprung up in Syria and is holding its own amidst all the turmoil there.  The author compares it to the anarchist movement in revolutionary Spain or the Zapatistas.  Don't know anything about it beyond what's in the link, but I bet someone here will know more and have something interesting to say.
That looks interesting.

I would question the need, or even the effectiveness, of widespread automation. Call me a cynic, but I would have to wonder if 3x the efficiency would result in 1/3 of the work, or people buying 3x the number of iToys. IMO we already are already efficient enough to drastically reduce the ammount of involuntary work we have to do, but often instead opt to buy a new car, or something. To me, I think a very different economical system, and a very different mindset, would be more useful than more technology.
My assumption is that this behavior is a consequence of how the entities in charge of forming public life (international companies) are selected for maximizing their profits, which gives them plenty of incentive to exploit and even create addictions. The metaphor of evolution for the free market isn't that far off, the proponents only seem to miss that the weighting function for that evolutionary algorithm is one of the most important parts.

When I say I am a "transhumanist anarchist" that basically means what SalmonGod is proposing, although I do think we need more formalized research into sociology. Humans can only interact with so many other humans reliably, I think we need some kind of abstract interface to get around that hurdle. One thing that is easy to miss is that we still need to get along with limited resources (like land, for instance) and that fulfilling everyones needs is not the only problem with distributing them but also what to actually do.
While Open Source and the like is a very nice model you need to pay attention to how many projects fail due to lack of consensus on how to do things. When limited resources are involve,d this can become a serious problem.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9442 on: February 09, 2015, 08:05:56 am »

Thank you!  I've shared that idea quite a bit over the last several years, and it's extremely rare that anyone takes it seriously.

I don't understand why more people don't expect serious social revolution as a result of the internet, because for that to not happen would be a major combo break to one of history's most consistent trends.  A major change in communications technology always results in a major alteration to the structure and form of society.

The rise and spread of civilization wouldn't have been possible without the development of written language.  The printing press was quite directly responsible for the renaissance and set the stage for the political revolutions of the last couple hundred years.  The internet is at least as big as both of those, being capable of instantly dispersing information to the entire world, making the totality of humanity's knowledge available to everyone on demand, and making it possible to structure communication among groups in ways nobody could have imagined before (internet forums being a great example - a completely unprecedented but effective means for people from all over the world gathering to exchange ideas in an organized manner at whatever pace they please).  I think it's naive for people to think that this won't have drastic impacts on the structure of society, and there needs to be active debate on what kinds of changes are possible from it and which ones we want to consciously work towards.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:07:42 am by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Angle

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9443 on: February 09, 2015, 08:26:19 am »

ooh, ooh, ooh! I've been going on about ideas that I have for this kid of thing for a while too! I've got ideas for a kind of distributed organizing system. You've probably seen them around here before, right?
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alexandertnt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9444 on: February 09, 2015, 08:37:22 am »

-snarf-
Yeah, I was worried I was going to get a Noble Savage card thrown on that. I'm using the word Tribe to mean "Stateless Society", not "innocent peoples that live in nature as God intended". And just as an aside, I'm aware of the shortcomings of living in a historical pre-state/tribal society when it comes to quality of life, access to resources, etc., and I know I wouldn't like it! >_o

Hmm, I have never heard the word "Tribe" used to mean something like a stateless society. I apologise then.

Even so, "pre-govermental stateless societies" don't seem to often embody many of the traits you listed. Although I don't have a reason to doubt that such a system couldn't work modern times just from that, I imagine it would probably work better, thanks to the fact we aren't fighting over scraps-of-food/mating-partners anymore (or as often (well, at least "generally aren't" in first world countries)), and are a bit more accepting now of individuals that deviate from social norms.
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You eat your own head
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Antsan

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9445 on: February 09, 2015, 08:41:18 am »

-snip-
I know what you mean. People tend to complain a lot about how Marx seemed to imply that communism would be the end of social development, yet there's this meme that we now have reached a point where anything won't ever change anymore.
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Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9446 on: February 09, 2015, 09:25:24 am »

SG, have I ever recommended Camus to you? The Rebel, specifically - it's an overview of the history of the philosophy of revolt and revolution, with a very decisive refutation of Communism as well as bourgeois society - you'll like it, even though it's very heavy material.
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Graknorke

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9447 on: February 09, 2015, 03:08:11 pm »

Ban Racists from Social Media
Once again people who do not understand what is practical on the internet try to make decisions about the internet.
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Dutchling

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9448 on: February 09, 2015, 03:23:27 pm »

That's hilarious.

I also love that the rabbi's name is Goldsmith. Why is it always Goldsmith.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9449 on: February 09, 2015, 03:28:01 pm »

Because Judaism.
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