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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1274331 times)

Antsan

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9330 on: February 07, 2015, 03:02:42 pm »

I still maintain that a lecture-less and class-less school isn't worse in terms of education and much better in terms of keeping children mentally healthy.
So what would the school be doing in that situation, exactly?
What the others said:
Being a library, providing tutors, structure, resources... connections with other organizations, etc.
Providing learning material other than books, having people available who can counteract bullying, spot problematic developments before they become problems and that kind of stuff. It's called a "prepared environment".
It's not like parents  can provide all of this.
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Graknorke

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9331 on: February 07, 2015, 03:08:43 pm »

Sorry, I'm just not seeing how that's useful. Because you're going to tell a bunch of children, "Go and learn things," and a whole load of them aren't going to without specifically being taught.
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Sheo

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9332 on: February 07, 2015, 03:13:58 pm »

As a guy who has a few trans friends and is writing a trans character -

What is the state of surgery atm? As in, how convincing is it, how expensive is it and so forth.

Second question, since I can't really figure out my own view on it - should a trans post-op person still be morally obliged to tell a possible sexual partner that he or she is trans? Does it violate the other's right to know not telling it?

Again, questions because I'm writing a trangender character at the moment and I want some better perspective, in case anyone has their own experiences and views.
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Frumple

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9333 on: February 07, 2015, 03:15:10 pm »

Sorry, I'm just not seeing how that's useful. Because you're going to tell a bunch of children, "Go and learn things," and a whole load of them aren't going to without specifically being taught.
... so you trick them. It's actually pretty easy to pull off, most of the time. Most people actually like to learn if things are framed correctly and the proverbial well hasn't been thoroughly poisoned. The ones that don't, yeah, maybe they're given a bit more structure. I'd pretty strongly argue they'd be a minority in a properly set up and primed scenario, though.

And if you start it out young, and manage the inclination towards exploration well, the behavior maintains itself pretty easily. We trend toward inquisitiveness pretty hard if given the opportunity and not taught to avoid it, last I paid attention to the state of things.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9334 on: February 07, 2015, 03:25:50 pm »

See, as there have actually been experiments from time to time about how best to educate, we can actually kind of know that the current "general" approach is usually the most effective for the most people, for a wide array of reasons but possibly most importantly that young people do not often possess the long term planning to appreciate that doing well is a "good thing" - open free form schools might benefit a very small minority, but most pupils who attend one take advantage of being able to do nothing constructive if they so wish - this was tried in the UK in the 60'/70's and most kids left these schools unable to compete in the labour market. Of course, far too over-formal classes are just as detrimental for young people who might not want to study certain things - as evidenced by the inevitable "drop outs" where the system was not flexible enough to offer them something relevant. I am exceptionally lucky to teach almost exclusively high ability pupils who have chosen to study my courses, so can approach teaching high ability small classes in an informal manner and do great things with them. The same could not be said if any of those variables were different. There is no ideal solution, and different "tweaks" to the process work for different skill/subject areas, age, stage, and abilities. There is a reason why most education systems tend towards the same general model adapted to suit different circumstances. Currently the most effective tweak to this model seems to be "vertical" classes rather than horizontal ones, where age is less relevant. You could have a class of say 25 pupils from age 12 to 16 all learning the same thing at the same rate if the group is formed of pupils with similar needs. Class size makes little difference. Teacher skill or experience makes little difference. Money or funding makes little difference. You know what does? Parents. Parents who instil some kind of value in education into their offspring, and who support the school in both learning and discipline, should the need arise. Unsurprisingly, this is less prevalent amongst the lower socio-economic classes in the west and more prevalent amongst the higher ones, but pretty much a constant in Asia, and in poorer nations where education is pretty much the only way out of poverty for people. get parents on board and you have the one thing on your side that makes education more effective, regardless of the model employed.

Finally nice for there to be a thread on B12 where I feel confident enough to speak with authority, what with having worked and conducted plenty of academic research on the matter.
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i2amroy

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9335 on: February 07, 2015, 03:30:00 pm »

Sorry, I'm just not seeing how that's useful. Because you're going to tell a bunch of children, "Go and learn things," and a whole load of them aren't going to without specifically being taught.
Oh, I saw an article on something like this recently, can't seem to find it again sadly, but I'll try to sum it up. Basically they took this fancy internet terminal (in english) and stuck it in a third world country (that didn't speak english) and just let kids go at it. Come back a few months later and nobody has learned like anything at all. So for the second phase they hired someone who's job was literally just to sit there and say "good job" whenever somebody took initiative to try to learn something. By the end of the next couple months they had kids teaching themselves calculus and speaking fairly coherent english.

So while just letting kids go into a library might not do much, if you give positive rewards for doing so (even small ones) it greatly improves the chances of them learning anything.
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Antsan

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9336 on: February 07, 2015, 03:34:09 pm »

Sorry, I'm just not seeing how that's useful. Because you're going to tell a bunch of children, "Go and learn things," and a whole load of them aren't going to without specifically being taught.
As I already said, my little brother went to a school which works exactly like that – no classes, no lectures – and lo and behold, as I also wrote earlier, it works, because these children weren't taught from day one that learning is something tedious and unfun! Every child in the whole wide world (who is lucky enough to have access) I ever heard of was totally ecstatic about finally going to school and learning such awesome things as reading and calculating and stuff! Seldom I see children on such high moods on the morning of the first day of school.
It's only after they spent a week at that soul-crushing hellhole which they call schools today that they begin to learn that going to school isn't about all that fun stuff like reading and calculating and history and stuff, but mostly about sitting still, listening to that boring dweeb in front of them while wishing they could do something interesting, like playing with bugs maybe or at least being finally able to read what they want instead of what their parents are willing to read to them or god knows what kind of things they come up with to do! But NO, of course that self-important teacher knows much better what's interesting and important and he doesn't even go as far as showing why it's important, no, he just will assert it with his almighty authority, because being a teacher is all about authority and not maybe about all the other aspects that make up pedagogy!
You know, in their little minds they believed going to school they finally would get to be self-sufficient, to do stuff by themselves but instead they get pressed into an even more passive role then ever before. How is it a surprise that they don't like it? Why does everyone conclude then that they won't learn if one just would let them from the moment they want to?

Wanting to learn is something which every child does.
But no, learning needs to be tainted with discipline, whose high regard stems from a time where the military was still the one branch of government which signaled it's prosperity, and tainted with false authority, which is just bullying by people who can get away with it. And when one wants to remove these things one is told that those are essential to learning, when those are exactly the thing which make learning into the insufferable rut it is now.

And about that
very small minority
That's a myth. It's not a minority. As I already stated repeatedly, the dropout rate at those schools isn't any higher than elsewhere. And as opposed to the dropouts at the standard schools these are actually still willing to improve and learn! They even feel fine with working in a menial job, where most others feel as if they're missing out somehow, only because their job misses prestige!

And don't come with the labor market! As if that was a productive environment in which people can work to the best of their ability!
Of course people who work best when you let them (and that is exactly what almost all of them learn in these schools, not only a "small minority") fail when you put pressure on them.

It's almost like you don't bash someone in the head with a frying pan repeatedly and then they can't deal with it when you start doing so! Of course the ones who are used to it already will work better under those conditions.

[Edit]Removed some of the hostility. The rest is hard to remove without reworking or changing the meaning.[/Edit]
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 06:23:26 pm by Antsan »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9337 on: February 07, 2015, 03:40:34 pm »

Sorry, I'm just not seeing how that's useful. Because you're going to tell a bunch of children, "Go and learn things," and a whole load of them aren't going to without specifically being taught.

While I'm interested in the "prepared environment" approach, I wasn't even suggesting that.  I was thinking more along the lines of assigned reading and such. 

Because for example, some people just don't get a damn thing out of lectures.  I'm one who just doesn't absorb anything that way.  I retain information best by reading it.  If I do learn from a lecture, it's by butting in and turning the session into a personal conversation with the teacher, but then I'm dominating the classroom.  Which I did a lot in college, where the environment is a lot different (and had other students thank me for it a few times), but the environment in public grade school heavily discourages that and if anyone came close, it was the hufflepuff extroverts that are both socially confident and extroverted enough hog the spotlight at an age where bullying and harsh group dynamics are prevalent.

So make an alternative classroom setting that kids can opt into if it suits them, where instead of a teacher talking to them all day as one group, there is a teacher that assigns reading and goalposts for demonstrated understanding, and is simply available to provide help as requested the rest of the time.  And if a student obviously chooses that setting as a way to be a lazy ass and produces no results, then the school has the power to kick them back into the more traditional classroom.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 03:42:07 pm by SalmonGod »
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Graknorke

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9338 on: February 07, 2015, 04:09:27 pm »

Uh, I think I might have been mixing up things being said in the last page or so.

I can't really argue with alternate provisions where it's more relevant.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9339 on: February 07, 2015, 08:26:37 pm »

As a guy who has a few trans friends and is writing a trans character -

What is the state of surgery atm? As in, how convincing is it, how expensive is it and so forth.

First, there are a bunch of different surgeries: top/bottom surgery for each gender, Adam's apple reduction, and apparently even more I've never heard of. Not every trans person gets any/all of the applicable surgeries, so referring to any one as "the surgery" or calling trans people "pre/post op" based solely on one surgery is really oversimplified. Using those terms for genital surgery is probably the least accurate way, because the vast majority of trans people don't get bottom surgery.

My roommate (who's a lot more plugged in to general trans stuff than me) said probably around 10% of trans people get genital surgery in America. That's not saying all of that 90% are completely comfortable with their genitals - a big part of that is because it's such a difficult surgery to get: it's thousands of dollars, your insurance won't cover it unless you're really lucky (read: are employed by a very liberal company), and there are very few doctors here that specialize in genital reconstruction. There's a decent chance you'll have to fly to another country to get it.

So I'd question the necessity for any trans characters to have genital surgery. Given your next question, it looks like the plot of whatever you're writing now requires it, but it's something to keep in mind in the future.

Appearance-wise, I don't know as much.

Second question, since I can't really figure out my own view on it - should a trans post-op person still be morally obliged to tell a possible sexual partner that he or she is trans? Does it violate the other's right to know not telling it?

I generally don't view a trans person hiding this as immoral, because telling someone you don't know well that you're trans is a great way to become the target of violence. Especially if you're a trans woman or a person of color (god forbid both).
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TD1

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9340 on: February 07, 2015, 08:30:58 pm »

I think they should. Before sex, I mean. Sometime during the dating process. If you think they are someone likely to be violent over it, you stop dating them anyway. You really like them? Tell them.

Because it lets the other person know what they're getting into. If they don't want that kind of relationship, then they most likely never will.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9341 on: February 07, 2015, 08:36:42 pm »

.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 12:22:11 am by penguinofhonor »
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TD1

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9342 on: February 07, 2015, 08:40:13 pm »

Regardles. Tell them. If you don't want to tell a stranger, date them first. Think they're going to be violent? Date them first.

I think the very least you should do is date them first in any relationship, but that's just opinion.
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Bauglir

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9343 on: February 07, 2015, 09:18:49 pm »

As a straight guy who would probably be unwilling to have sex with a post-transition transwoman (for entirely inexplicable, and presumably irrational, reasons, I might add), I'd still say that you're only as obligated to tell them as you are any other extremely personal quality. In the context of a long-term relationship, I think you probably should, but less because there's a moral obligation and more because a long-term relationship that you're not comfortable being that open with is one that might need to be reconsidered, especially if it's one where one partner might want children later on. In the context of a one-night stand or something - well, that's really up to you.

Would you discuss your deeply-held religious tenets? You might! And, likewise, you might discuss this. But imposing an obligation seems like a weird thing to do - even to me, somebody who might actually want to factor it into his decision-making.
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Putnam

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9344 on: February 07, 2015, 09:49:17 pm »

I would mostly just be slightly bothered by the dishonesty if there was ever any actual lying.
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