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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1275423 times)

Frumple

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9225 on: January 23, 2015, 10:48:33 am »

There's a morality to bringing up a judgment that's both largely wrong -- hobbes was straight up full of shit on the nasty, brutish, and short -- and only partially relevant to the current era, though. We haven't been dealing with the natural results of our fundamental nature since before we as a species sharped a freaking stick, and our natural motivations are so far by the wayside at this point they're a functional non-issue, except maybe to point at and mock.
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MDFification

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9226 on: January 23, 2015, 11:27:37 am »

What applies to misanthropes applies to everyone else who talks about human nature.

There is no such thing as "human nature" and there is no such thing as "humanity" or "human motivation" either. Those are abstractions, roadblocks for your mind, petty excuses and killer arguments. I've never seen it done that someone talked about "human nature" and then proceeded to do something productive.

I don't see how being insatiable means we cannot proceed to do better than today. Being insatiable is what makes life interesting. I'm not even talking about that whole slew about how we need pain and strife in our life to feel positive emotions (which I don't believe) but I just know that every bit of fun I had in my life was due to some kind of change. When we learn to cause the right kinds of changes around and in us, being insatiable is a good thing.

Humans do have a set range of motivations instilled in them by biology. To say that they don't is unscientific. Due to the extreme complexity of the human brain, these motivations can be transcribed into a massive variety of desires, but to claim that the central mechanism of human motivation (to pursue felicity and to avoid pain/fear) does not exist is a case of 'post-modern' thinking without a basis in empirical evidence; really, its just saying 'we can't understand' as a way to avoid having to come to a different conclusion.
The thing about insatiability is that because wants are infinite, it is not possible to create a society where wants do not conflict. What I'm trying to get at here is, how do we decide which wants should be fulfilled, and which shouldn't?
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Antsan

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9227 on: January 23, 2015, 12:00:12 pm »

You are misunderstanding what I am saying.
I am not saying "we cannot understand", I am saying "we don't understand currently and people come to premature conclusions all the time". If you relly were using the term "human motivation" in the way you claim to do, you wouldn't be able to come to the conclusion that there always will be conflicts over resources.

Quote
The thing about insatiability is that because wants are infinite, it is not possible to create a society where wants do not conflict.
Wants are probably not infinite in resource hunger. The capacity of the human nervous system is finite. There is only so much you can experience at any point in time. If that capacit is taken up, adding anything more wouldn't change the subjective perception anymore.

Quote
What I'm trying to get at here is, how do we decide which wants should be fulfilled, and which shouldn't?
First those which ensure continued existence. After that it probably gets complex, but I guess "ordered by efficiency" might be a starting point.
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ArKFallen

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9228 on: January 23, 2015, 01:42:29 pm »

Quote
What I'm trying to get at here is, how do we decide which wants should be fulfilled, and which shouldn't?
First those which ensure continued existence. After that it probably gets complex, but I guess "ordered by efficiency" might be a starting point.
Question: ordered by efficiency for whom?

We need to be able to all come to a consensus on where exactly this group interest ends. Do we stick to humans or go through anything that can be considered a person? Is sapience important and what level of ability to communicate with us establishes sapience?
This is important as it establishes exactly whose continued existence we are mandating for. Similarly some people define themselves through groups or concepts/cultures and would be "unable" to live without them. How should we choose which concepts to promote and which to discard?
Way too long to type. Might have even been a topic change but it seems on target to me.
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Reelya

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9230 on: February 05, 2015, 02:15:22 pm »

I think it's pretty dumb really. "They didn't teach me everything in the world that I will ever need to know. Yet I'm going to complain about what they did teach me." It's kinda a straw man, because no matter what they teach you, you will alway be able to produce one of those videos complaining about it. It's just not possible to cover successfully all the stuff he asks for before you hit 18. And much of that is knowledge that changes all the time.

Like he complains about not being taught all about every political issue he's voting on. If a school did that, it'd be all you ever learned. And he wants how to raise a kid, how the tax system works, explaining all the injustices in the world, being "fluent" in multiple languages, how he should budget his shopping etc etc etc. all at the same time.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 02:18:30 pm by Reelya »
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Sirus

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9231 on: February 05, 2015, 02:17:39 pm »

Wonder what people's thoughts on this are?
Shitty rap, worse points. How he expects people to get a decent job when you don't even have a diploma-equivalent to show basic language and math skills is beyond me. And maybe the schools where this guy lives are just extra-terrible, but I did learn the basics of economics, how the government works, laws, taxes, etc in school. Did he simply not pay attention?

True, a lot of what school teaches is fluff. But I think such fluff is important, because a student might find him or herself REALLY interested in cellular biology or history or any number of other subjects and devote his/her life to those subjects.
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Reelya

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9232 on: February 05, 2015, 02:19:48 pm »

Without the education he had, would he be in a position to even ask those questions? Education teaches you how to ask the questions. School can't provide all the answers, since nobody has them.

He's going to do great with his taxes and budgeting without maths too. Also he wants to understand current affairs but skip the "irrelevant" old stuff. Good luck with that.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 02:23:45 pm by Reelya »
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Graknorke

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9233 on: February 05, 2015, 02:25:32 pm »

Wonder what people's thoughts on this are?
"I wish schools would teach rote memorisation of lists rather than helping give an insight into more complex subjects"

m8 I don't think the education system has changed so much in a decade that he wouldn't have learned any of that had he paid some fucking attention.
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i2amroy

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9234 on: February 05, 2015, 02:29:14 pm »

Obviously the answer to the "efficient for whom" question is one we need to answer by making a giant computer that rates happiness, healthiness, and productivity over time for every single person on the earth, and combines that data with the resources available and delivered to each person. From that data you should then be able to at least approximate rough estimates of who could get the most out of any given unit of a resource (up to and including degradation from things like the reduction in a person's efficiency from things like say, starvation). It would be an incredibly complex system model, and would require constant monitoring and whatnot to work, but it's still possible. (Assuming we threw out other discussions like privacy and whatnot). As a gestalt entity created by the human race, that is short of any needs except electricity and data (the first of which is a limited "need" and the second of which just limits the accuracy of your calculations), it should work rather well as a passive observer that can weigh costs and benefits on a global scale for each individual person.

It's not that we can't create an efficient society (even at current levels of technology) it's just that trying to do so would stomp over all sorts of "human rights", and would require working together on a global scale, which it's very unlikely that we accomplish anytime soon.
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Antsan

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9235 on: February 05, 2015, 02:31:56 pm »

Wonder what people's thoughts on this are?
I don't like it. While I can understand his complaints I think he is going at it from the wrong direction. For someone sporting red/black hair he seems awfully fine with even needing special knowledge on "how to get a job".

"I wish schools would teach rote memorisation of lists rather than helping give an insight into more complex subjects"
Yeah, that is kinda what I got out of this.
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Reelya

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9236 on: February 05, 2015, 02:33:08 pm »

Quote
Obviously the answer to the "efficient for whom" question is one we need to answer by making a giant computer that rates happiness, healthiness, and productivity over time for every single person on the earth, and combines that data with the resources available and delivered to each person. From that data you should then be able to at least approximate rough estimates of who could get the most out of any given unit of a resource

That's utilitarianism, and for the pure version there's a strong rebuttal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monster

Imagine a hypothetical alien monster, who gets more value (utility) out of any resource than any human every could. By the logical of pure utilitarianism, maximizing gain to everyone, we should give all the resources to the monster.

Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9237 on: February 05, 2015, 02:47:23 pm »

I know I said I was going to leave. I got angry. I'm making an exception.

I feel sorry for the financially and culturally disadvantaged kids under the proposed system change who would never have the chance to be introduced to diverse academic topics and even have a shot at research or well-paid jobs, most of which require the basic numeracy practiced in the "theoretical math" he's displeased with. The rich will keep tutoring their kids and gliding into Harvard. The poorer will be less screwed over by the system, perhaps, but lose access to their culture. I am working as a math tutor teaching 13-year-olds and college students basic arithmetic thanks to the point of view that all that math stuff is a waste of time out in the real world, so the kid can just have a calculator whenever they want one. Now they're finding out that when they need a basic number sense to do things out in the world, they're totally screwed and have to, I repeat, learn basic adding skills as a teenager or adult when it is much, MUCH harder. These are the rich kids from areas like Berkeley and Los Angeles who can afford private schools. There is a SERIOUS problem.

What we need to understand is that the elementary math education in the school is not actually about "mental math" per se. It is about gaining a sense of, and fluency with, numbers in general, which is evidenced by the ability to do quick mental arithmetic. This is a valuable skill. No, you do not actually need to be able to read to be a successful adult. It helps, though. Understanding how your number system works and getting a good grasp of basic algebra is also extremely helpful.


Frankly, this point of view makes me furious. If you want to argue that we should teach the things he mentioned in addition to everything deemed pointless, then I agree. People should have basic life skills. Around here, there is a one-semester required course that covers the basics of all of the topics he wanted, without needing to scrimp on basic math, science, and culture. Health is taught as part of the physical education curriculum. We learn about the legal system in history class. I learned how to file a tax return as a fifth grader in math class. I learned to balance a budget in sixth grade as, again, part of math class. We learned about how to compound interest in... AGAIN, math class, for precalculus. Physics? Math class! The game theoretic ideas you use to run a business? It was math class. Engineering and design projects... one more time, math class. Complaining about mathematics being taught poorly is one thing, but saying "Okay, I haven't found a use for it, so we ought to get rid of it" is totally asinine and betrays a disturbing lack of thought on the matter.

There are natural positions for all of the knowledge he wishes he had, where they can add, rather than detract, from the learning as a useful application. Advocating the removal of theory in exclusive favor of application is idiotic.

Otherwise? It's an offensive continuation of the concept that offering children beauty and interesting things to think about (and tools to think about them) is categorically unnecessary. The bright and sensitive will continue to be fucked over and educated chiefly in the notion that their needs don't exist. It's important to realize that folks who really don't need or want the abstract knowledge exist as well, who can be better educated by making parts of the curriculum more concrete, but all I'm seeing here is a staggering lack of sensitivity or thought on his part.
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Darvi

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9238 on: February 05, 2015, 02:51:24 pm »

Quote
Obviously the answer to the "efficient for whom" question is one we need to answer by making a giant computer that rates happiness, healthiness, and productivity over time for every single person on the earth, and combines that data with the resources available and delivered to each person. From that data you should then be able to at least approximate rough estimates of who could get the most out of any given unit of a resource

That's utilitarianism, and for the pure version there's a strong rebuttal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monster

Imagine a hypothetical alien monster, who gets more value (utility) out of any resource than any human every could. By the logical of pure utilitarianism, maximizing gain to everyone, we should give all the resources to the monster.
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Antsan

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #9239 on: February 05, 2015, 03:23:43 pm »

Quote
Obviously the answer to the "efficient for whom" question is one we need to answer by making a giant computer that rates happiness, healthiness, and productivity over time for every single person on the earth, and combines that data with the resources available and delivered to each person. From that data you should then be able to at least approximate rough estimates of who could get the most out of any given unit of a resource

That's utilitarianism, and for the pure version there's a strong rebuttal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monster

Imagine a hypothetical alien monster, who gets more value (utility) out of any resource than any human every could. By the logical of pure utilitarianism, maximizing gain to everyone, we should give all the resources to the monster.
Normalizing against the maximum possible utility for any individual might be a solution for that problem. (Not that I propose to actually do something like that)
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