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[Nadaka]

http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/01/07/1920204/americas-real-criminal-element-lead

Interesting. It lead contamination and its reduction is strongly correlated with violent crime rates worldwide.

[RedKing]

http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/01/07/1920204/americas-real-criminal-element-lead

Interesting. It lead contamination and its reduction is strongly correlated with violent crime rates worldwide.

Less lead in people resulted in...well, people shooting less lead at other people?

[Nadaka]

http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/01/07/1920204/americas-real-criminal-element-lead

Interesting. It lead contamination and its reduction is strongly correlated with violent crime rates worldwide.

Less lead in people resulted in...well, people shooting less lead at other people?

yep

[Helgoland]

http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/01/07/1920204/americas-real-criminal-element-lead

Interesting. It lead contamination and its reduction is strongly correlated with violent crime rates worldwide.

Less lead in people resulted in...well, people shooting less lead at other people?

yep

They say it's because of leaded gasoline.

Seems weird, could be true though. Heavy metals are funky like that.

[Descan]

Why does it seem weird?

[lorb]

From the article:

if you overlay a map showing areas with higher incidence of violent crime with one showing lead contamination, there's a strikingly high correlation

.. which is interesting but not really surprising because:
1.) if you overlay a map showing areas with higher incidence of violent crime with one showing low income areas, there's a strikingly high correlation
2.) if you overlay a map showing areas with low income with one showing lead contamination, there's a strikingly high correlation

So I'd say it may boil down to: being affected by lead contamination is a sign of low socio-economic status (SES) which leads to more violent crime. Basically you could as well match poor grades in math with high violence (low education->low SES)

[SalmonGod]

Yeah, it's one of those cases where the correlation seems plausible enough to make you think, but the use of statistics to support it isn't very well executed.  Statistical correlation can be shown for all kinds of ridiculous things.  Often it just points to another thing that relates to both subjects in the correlation.

[Sheb]

While it's true for the map, they did account for income in their other model.

[misko27]

I think it's possible there are factors that make you more likely to be poisoned by lead that are the same as factors for gun violence. It's not necessarily causation.

[PanH]

Like being drenched in leaded gasoline ?

Lead is knows for health issues, especially with kids. Saying that lead contamined children are more prone to criminality is far fetched.

I call BS on this, because it's just linking some statistics for no reason whatsoever. Some statistics can even be considered false, compared to other statistics (what I mean is, you can't prove a theory just by showing some statistics). I'm even impressed that they are trying to link crime per capita to demographic growth (when they are trying to show that crimes went down even with population increasing, although that has nothing to do with lead).

It also doesn't explain the growth of criminality, it would have meant a plateau, not a constant increase/decrease.

And, it's strictly USA, there is some countries with a higher rate of lead in blood than America, and still a lower criminality. There is places with different situations (about lead and criminality). Reading the original study (2007, but the original idea was from 200), it also dismissed NY and some other state.
(And I'm talking about the industrialized countries that had this increase of criminality in the 1950s).


At best, as misko said, there are some factors that are the same for lead contamination and criminality (which is much more close to what's said in the studies rather than the "news").

[penguinofhonor]

I've updated the OP so it's more helpful to people first encountering it, messed with the rules a bit, and took my name out of the thread title since I don't think it's necessary anymore. I was considering changing the rest of the name, but "Halcyon and Harmonious Humanist Harangue Haven" wasn't quite as clear as the current title.

Spoiler: old OP, archived (click to show/hide)

Okay, so. Last thread got closed. I'm going to try and hold the reigns for a little while. Toady has suggested an active OP is an important tool in keeping a thread in control, so that's what I'm going to try to do.

Rules:

• All common sense rules of discussion apply. No ad hominems. No trolling.
• No ridiculous semantics arguments. These are probably what destroyed the last thread. Do these via PM if you're going to at all. This doesn't mean you can't point out that someone said something bad, but if it doesn't resolve itself in a post or two it's probably never going to be resolved so drop it.
• Use logic, make your arguments clear, etc. This aids in ease of discussion. Use sources if possible.

Rules 1 and 2 are pretty much zero-tolerance. Those sorts of things will likely destroy the thread if not contained properly, so I'm going to nip them in the bud right now. Basically, don't be mean, and don't get in any ridiculous circular arguments (usually of the semantic variety) that will never end. Capntastic has given us a fantastic flowchart detailing appropriate discussion.

Oh, and if anyone sees me breaking any of the rules don't be afraid to point it out. I've been known to get caught up in a semantic argument on occasion and it's probably a bad habit.

Additional tips:

A lot of counter arguments, while directly attacking the argument rather than the person making it, leave subtle hints that "anyone who actually believes this garbage is an idiot." Most commonly seen with sarcasm and satire. This, to me, is no better than direct ad hominem.

[Sheb]

Actually, here is a lengthier article about the same studie, where they seems to address most of your concerns.

[PanH]

Actually, here is a lengthier article about the same studie, where they seems to address most of your concerns.

I already read it, and nope, nothing.

[DrPoo]

Alright time for me to think about things for once.. not that i do this al the time, but in a serious fashion.

It feels like democracy is having its retreat, and that corperations are given more and more pwoer each day.

Another thing i have been pondering about is where the hell is all the money going? Why is US in debt?
I know, war, and war. But still, it cant all be war. Where the fuck is the economy going?

Bah.. and what will happen once economy goes completely to shit and the world market crashes?
WHAT WILL HAPPEN

[Sheb]

You mean like in 2007? We bail out the banks and impose austerity.

Re: lead, they do say they ran the test in other countries. They're also not claiming that lead is the sole cause of criminality, but one explaining factors among many. As for the growth, apparently leaded gasoline used grew constantly until it was banned then fell down, so it explain the raise in criminality as well.