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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1245355 times)

Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1515 on: May 23, 2012, 11:38:01 am »

Seriously. How does not having sympathy for NAZI's make me a fascist?
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RedKing

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1516 on: May 23, 2012, 11:42:32 am »

Tactics were derpy, but it was gratifying to read the bit about two of the white supremacists being arrested on outstanding warrants (one for kiddie porn, one for firearms violation). So there's that.

But in general, vigilanteism against non-violent douchebags is bad, m'kay?
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1517 on: May 23, 2012, 11:54:09 am »

There are two ways of looking at it.

1.) Hating people for any speech/beliefs is a form of fascism.

2.) "But they're really Nazis...." 

You know, maybe it's that half the first person shooters (or more) are about killing Nazis, zombies, cultists or nazi alien zombies, but I see the appeal of #2. Or maybe it's just the WBC and KKK's recent activity. Who knows. I can also see the appeal of #1, but am confused about it. Then I remember violence is bad but also the first person shooters and it's all a mess.
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Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1518 on: May 23, 2012, 12:02:02 pm »

Hate isn't fascism. And neither is being unsympathetic.

Fascism is authoritarian nationalist corporatism.

I really really want to know why I, of all people, am a fascist.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

RedKing

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1519 on: May 23, 2012, 12:04:25 pm »

I think it's the tacit approval of violence against people whose beliefs you don't like. I get where you're coming from, believe me. But I get where scriver's coming from too.
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1520 on: May 23, 2012, 12:07:28 pm »

I think it's the tacit approval of violence against people whose beliefs you don't like. I get where you're coming from, believe me. But I get where scriver's coming from too.

When did I approve of violence against people I don't like? I just don't feel bad about it.

And even if I did approve of violence against NAZI's, that wouldn't make me fascist.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

ChairmanPoo

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1521 on: May 23, 2012, 12:09:22 pm »

Approving of violence against people you dont like might not be too civic (depending on the circumstances) but neither makes someone a fascist (or even authoritarian) by default
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scriver

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1522 on: May 23, 2012, 12:10:48 pm »

There are two definitions of "fascism" as it is commonly used. One is referring to the "real" or "classic" fascism of for example Mussolini. The other one refers two people who rules or wants to rule or support rule through violence and fear of violence. By supporting the violence on people you dislike, you are being the second kind. It doesn't matter who the victims are.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1523 on: May 23, 2012, 12:12:38 pm »

That's... not fascism, by any definition I've heard. That's arguably tyranny - you could say they are being tyrannical or something. But fascist? Not to my knowledge.

Maybe you all use the word differently up where you are, though?
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Frumple

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1524 on: May 23, 2012, 12:53:54 pm »

I actually heard the latter definition (Primarily rule by fear) used a few times by professors, though ones that had a fair bit more european influence than a lot of states-side folks. I'd wager the lack of major presence of that definition in America is due largely because allowing it to spread around means that people start (accurately) labeling large swaths of the American political and media dialogue as fascist in nature.

Which... I've had a WWII vet (one of my professors) tell me there is some damn disconcerting parallels between the US now and the fascist nations during and before WWII kicked into full gear.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1525 on: May 23, 2012, 12:59:24 pm »

Oh, there are. We've got plenty of pretty blatant fascists.

But the other one already has a word, tyranny. And that gets thrown a lot already. We gain nothing from calling them the same thing (even if fascists often end up as tyrants anyway, whether petty or grand).
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Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1526 on: May 23, 2012, 01:09:08 pm »

A Demagogue would be a person who gains power through appeals to fear and popular prejudice. I believe the correct term for that as a political stance is demagogy. Tyranny is rule by force and threat of force, the aspect of fear in tyranny is tangential.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

palsch

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1527 on: May 23, 2012, 01:36:23 pm »

North Dakota citizens will vote on June 12 on an incredibly dangerous ballot initiative. If passed, it would allow people to claim that their personal religious beliefs give them the right to break non-discrimination, health, safety, and child protection laws.
I wish the law allowed me to punch whoever suggested this.
I don't have a problem with this.

All this does is extend strict scrutiny (or something very much like them; realistically it restores the Sherbert Test) protections to religious liberty. Prior to 1997 any religious freedom case was decided under that level of review. In 1990 this was reduced by the courts (Employment Division v. Smith), removing the requirement of a compelling state interest.  To quote the majority;
Quote
What it produces in those other fields [of race and free speech] -- equality of treatment, and an unrestricted flow of contending speech -- are constitutional norms; what it would produce here -- a private right to ignore generally applicable laws -- is a constitutional anomaly.
The takeaway from this was that states may exempt people from laws for religious reasons, but didn't have to, even if there was no compelling interest. Instead the standards required only that a law not single out a religious group. So a blanket ban on a particular activity would be uniformly applied to all religions no matter their beliefs on that matter.

In response the Religious Freedom Restoration Act was passed with strong support on the left and right, the ACLU, various religious and conservative groups, unanimous consent from the House and 97 Senators. This simply restored the Sherbert Test.

However, in 1997 the court held that the RFRA was unconstitutional in it's application to state law, broadly because Congress may not dictate to the court how to interpret the constitution. The act was amended to only apply to federal law and upheld in 2006. That is to say, on the federal level the Sherbert test applies.

Individual states have been implementing their own versions of the RFRA since then, essentially bringing state law in line with federal law.

It's worth noting two main points about these laws;

1) It primarily defends minority religions. During the three years that the RFRA applied to the states, 18% of claims were made by Jews, Muslims, and Native Americans, at the time making up around 3% of the religious population of the US.

2) Even strict scrutiny isn't that strict in religious freedom cases. This review suggests some 59% of laws restricting religious freedom and challenged under such standards are upheld by the courts. I'd recommend reading the relevant part of that paper (page 66 onwards). In particular they note that laws challenged under statutes like the RFRA are upheld a full 71% of the time. They then split the cases between discrimination cases and free exercise exemption cases. Discrimination cases are never upheld; 15 of 15 laws were struck down. Free exercise exemption cases were upheld 74% of the time. So even under the strongest standards only 3/4's of challenges are upheld. And this number has decreased significantly since the 80's, when a far wider range of exemption cases could be brought forwards.

The argument made to explain this goes back to the quoted passage above. The courts can not truly apply strict scrutiny in the broadest fashion without creating gross inequalities - themselves likely constitutional problems - or entirely invalidating otherwise perfectly valid laws. I very much doubt that this is going to change into the future without an absolutely huge sea change in enforceable constitutional interpretation.

Overall I don't see this making much of a difference. Some more religious exemption cases can be brought forwards, but then there are some interesting border cases that probably deserve a solid hearing. Under modern judicial standards it's very unlikely that religious exemptions are going to get much broader. It only brings state law in line with federal law (not to mention other states) without realistically creating any new rights.

The intent behind the law might well be a pile of steaming bullshit, but I don't much care about that or who the sponsors are. The effect looks fairly minimal and, well, fair enough.


Fakedit: Really need to do less reading and writing to post in this thread... I swear this was on topic when I started.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1528 on: May 23, 2012, 01:48:35 pm »

http://www.openfile.ca/toronto/story/what-we-couldnt-say-about-byron-sonne-trial-part-i

At least he's finally free. But they ruined his life, for what amounts to no reason at all. And it's not often you see a police officer openly admit "Yes we totally made this shit up, but its okay because damn that guy just aint normal"
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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1529 on: May 27, 2012, 08:35:38 pm »

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-almost-half-vets-seek-disability-160656481.html

Just in time for Memorial Day: yahoo.com commenters being assholes by calling disabled veterans "tax leeches." Nope, turns out all those wars weren't worth it and have an enormous cost we still haven't fully realized. Frankly anyone who ever read a history book knows wars are expensive (and many other undesirable things). So all that "support our troops" was just crap as proven by us not providing the funding when the check cometh due.... Where did people think the term "war chest" came from? Nobody else on my street has a flag out.... I hope they enjoy their day off.... I can't even comprehend this completely irrational hatred of any type of government spending when it reaches into vet affairs. Shit, even Ayn Rand said the military was a legitimate government function and she's pretty much the Queen Libertarian.... I sorta hope this is just evidence of Yahoo.com being overwhelmingly trollololols rather than what people really feel.
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.
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