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[NTJedi]

The last few games I've noticed whenever I'm trading if the merchant doesn't like my first offer his next expected price is even higher and it continously gets worse until he's upset and leaves.  This is backwards from any historical trading where haggling has both merchants moving more closely to a single reasonable price.
 

Can you imagine walking into a car dealership and them raising the price to even a higher amount than when you first entered?

[Loud Whispers]

You're the one who's supposed to be haggling here

Also, legendary appraiser. If he keeps asking for higher prices to the point where he's leaving, you're not offering nearly enough mugs!

Also, merchants can sometimes be children.

So yeah.

[dreadmullet]

Dwarf: I'm willing to trade this -chert mug- for your entire caravan.
Merchant: No, that's not reasonable.
Dwarf: I'm willing to trade these two chert mugs for your entire caravan.
Merchant: No, that's not reasonable.
Dwarf: I'm willing to trade these three chert mugs for your entire caravan.
Merchant: No, that's not reasonable.
Dwarf: I'm willing to trade these four chert mugs for your entire caravan.
Merchant: Okay.

[NTJedi]

New game. My broker is level5 appraiser, level 2 intimidator, and level 2 judge of intent.
 This is actually what happens:

Dwarf: I'm willing to trade all these crafts & gems which have a value of 2800 for your cages & ore which have a value of 2500.
Merchant: No, that's not reasonable we want more crafts & gems for a value of 4000 for the cages & ore .

Dwarf: I'm willing to trade more of our crafts & gems for a value of 3500 for your cages & ore which have a value of 2500.

Merchant: No, that's not reasonable we want even more crafts & gems for a value of 5000 for the cages & ore .

Dwarf: Why are you increasing your price higher than your previous offers?  I'm willing to trade all my crafts and gems which have a value of 4200 for your cages & ore which have a value of 2500.

Merchant: No, that's not reasonable we want even more crafts & gems for a value of 7000 for the cages & ore .

Dwarf: Seriously?? Have you been smoking Longland grass?? What if I give you some of my food, all my crafts & gems for a value of 4800

Merchant: I've had enough and we'll talk next year.



   

[Urist McDepravity]

They went through all the hassle to come with all these goods to your fort. Its a bit unreasonable to expect them to have no profit over deal.
Besides, forts are always floating in all that useless stone crap, so its not too hard to give 2x of what you try to buy.

[Flying Dice]

You've basically got two options in that situation: make an offer much higher than the actual value of what you want, 2x-3x more at least; or deconstruct the depot, steal everything, and have fun running a self-sufficient fortress. Well, and you could order your militia to kill the merchant out of spite and have fun learning what 'loyalty cascade' means. 


Ed: As an example, I just traded ~1200 worth of random trinkets for ~350 worth of food and picks. You need to give them a very good profit margin, and as you're essentially getting stuff in exchange for getting rid of a ton of waste stone, there really isn't a downside. Also note that giving them good deals ("soandso seems pleased with the trading" and such), IIRC they'll give you better deals and bring more and better stuff next time.

[NTJedi]

I don't mind giving them a good profit...  I just wish haggling worked more like haggling.




Coupling vacationing in one of the dwarf fortress realms:

Dwarf couple admiring the sunset and drinking dwarven wine.
Artist approaches the couple and says, "Excuse me would you like me to draw the picture of both of you for 2 silver coins?"
Dwarf man responds, "Well 2 silver coins is a little expensive let's say 1 silver coin?"
Artist responds, "No.. No... I will need 3 silver coins."
Dwarf man surprisingly says, "Dammm I totally forgot haggling only increases the price, oh well 2 silver was too high anyways."
Artist responds, "Would you be interested in giving me 4 silver coins?"

Dwarf man...   

[Sutremaine]

New game. My broker is level5 appraiser, level 2 intimidator, and level 2 judge of intent.

Appraiser doesn't matter for trade, and only the first level of Judge of Intent matters. How was your broker's Negotiation skill?

Try making a few small trades at a massive percentage profit but a small monetary profit (by small, I mean like a single cheap barrel of booze). In .31 these trades would soften the trader up so that you'd have a better chance of sneaking in a trade with a small percentage profit and a large monetary one. In .34 it might have changed, or it might not have.

[Loud Whispers]

Trading appears to have gotten a lot harsher O_O

[agatharchides]

What happens is that making an 'unreasonable' offer decreases the trader's mood and when his mood is lower, you need to make a better offer to get a deal. You aren't really 'haggling', the game engine doesn't support it. Trader mood is the only thing that changes the profit they will accept and AFAIK only making successful trades boosts it. If you want to do that sort of thing, offering a few small trades at a great margin before the big one can help although as others have noted, it is pretty easy to have enough trade goods after a few years.

[Sutremaine]

Trading appears to have gotten a lot harsher O_O

I don't think trading has changed when it comes to haggling. Traders rejecting a 2500/2800 trade is pretty normal in the first year. If you had an easygoing trader and a dwarf with exceptional mental stats you could probably pull it off, but a move like that is just going to make most traders cranky.

Taking raw materials and selling them back to the caravan processed is a good way of multiplying wealth. Prepared meals are the most common option for various reasons, but thread can become valuble crafts very quickly if you brought a weaver / clothier, especially if they like cloth that can be made from whatever the traders are bringing.

[Genoraven]

New game. My broker is level5 appraiser, level 2 intimidator, and level 2 judge of intent.

Appraiser doesn't matter for trade, and only the first level of Judge of Intent matters. How was your broker's Negotiation skill?

Try making a few small trades at a massive percentage profit but a small monetary profit (by small, I mean like a single cheap barrel of booze). In .31 these trades would soften the trader up so that you'd have a better chance of sneaking in a trade with a small percentage profit and a large monetary one. In .34 it might have changed, or it might not have.

So for an example: buy something worth 100 for like 300 first so it will make him happier then you should be able to get away with better deals.

Trading appears to have gotten a lot harsher O_O

I don't think trading has changed when it comes to haggling. Traders rejecting a 2500/2800 trade is pretty normal in the first year. If you had an easygoing trader and a dwarf with exceptional mental stats you could probably pull it off, but a move like that is just going to make most traders cranky.

Taking raw materials and selling them back to the caravan processed is a good way of multiplying wealth. Prepared meals are the most common option for various reasons, but thread can become valuble crafts very quickly if you brought a weaver / clothier, especially if they like cloth that can be made from whatever the traders are bringing.

What i do is i seize all of the elves cloth and then just trade that cloth to the dwarven caravan.

[Jeremy]

Is there even any theoretical point in attempting to haggle at this point? In other words, if a trader says they want x dorfbucks for this item, is there a hidden value below x that they will accept? If this is the case, haggling would work in principle, though it would be practically impossible as each offer changes the hidden value drastically.

Also, is the mood hit from making a bad offer factored into the counter offer, or is that calculated based on the pre-hit mood value?

[Sutremaine]

In other words, if a trader says they want x dorfbucks for this item, is there a hidden value below x that they will accept?

Sometimes you can keep making the same offer and have the trader accept it. I don't recall if that's ever worked after the trader's mood starts to decrease. Certainly I've never tried selling fewer items for the same amount of goods.

[MiniMacker]

I usually have a rule of thumb that I always offer 33-50% more than what I want is worth.

If something is valued at 2000, then I'll trade junk beautiful mugs off worth 3000.