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[Criptfeind]

Alright. Really now. Can we please go back to talking about brain fish? Not the status of humans as humans (and trolling)?

I feel that even if they are intelligent, they are still not human. We should deal with them with respect, but not more so than we should for any other critter.

[rarborman]

I agree they should be treated respectfully, just dont think about calling them anything but dolphin, sorry if my beliefs sound like trolling, but I say dolphins being people, even with the loosest defineition sounds like trolling to me.

[Ancre]

So, can I have links to the works done on dolphin language and how they have names and all ? How was this discovered ? Have we tried to communicate with them already ? If so, what have we managed to say to each other ? Do they talk about abstract stuff ? Or are they very limited in the information they exchange ?

Somebody mentioned it earlier and said he could dig up the sources if asked, so I ask.

[The Fool]

I wouldn't mind seeing some sources on their communication skills.

I also think that they should be treated with respect, but until we figure out how to communicate directly with them we shouldn't be granting full equal rights. Releasing them from captivity would be a good first step though.

Yes, they are rapists and child killers, but it's built into their society. There have been some societies in the past that kill their own ritualistically, it's entirely possible that they're doing it for reasons that we simply don't understand. I'm not saying that it's morally right, but we shouldn't judge them until we know what's going on.

[RedKing]

I'm all for cetacean rights, personally.
Though strictly speaking, cephalopods have a higher rate of cognitive development. They're just hamstrung by their short lifespans.

Also, the mirror thing got me to wondering---does this mean humans weren't self-aware until we invented mirrors? 

[Frumple]

Nah, reflection doesn't necessitate mirrors. We might not have been self-aware until we found water, though 

[Svarte Troner]

Why do we need to regard animals as "people" when people are animals?.... I just confused myself.

[Criptfeind]

People are animals lulz.

No.

First off, because we are people. I don't actually think a dolphin would care about me. The question I guess is should it? Obviously if we grant them rights they would have to grant us the same.

Secondly, we may be animals but we are clearly better brain wise.

[Qmarx]

Eh, dolphins are murderous assholes (see: beating baby porpoises to death sheerly for the lulz)

That said, I'll be willing to concede the issue... as soon as a marine mammal *asks*.  I've been following the communications projects, and looking at the research papers there's a hell of a lot of wishful thinking there.

The evidence isn't nearly good enough for the conclusion.

[Svarte Troner]

People are animals lulz.

No.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. People aren't animals?

[RedKing]

Yeah, that's an odd distinction to make. We're certainly not plants or minerals. We're a mostly clever set of highly adaptable apes with far less body hair.

[Flying Dice]

I sincerely hope that isn't related to the "Humans aren't animals because god says we're special!" thing. We are animals, and for the purposes of this discussion, "people" can probably be used as a blanket term for any intelligent, self-aware individual. So in other words, all people are animals, but not all animals are people. And possibly at some point in the future we might encounter plants who are people.

[Chaoswizkid]

That's like using presence of eyeglasses to gauge somebody's education level.

*points back to the large amount of animals that fail the test*


It's a decent start.

Alright. Really now. Can we please go back to talking about brain fish? Not the status of humans as humans (and trolling)?

I feel that even if they are intelligent, they are still not human.

No one is saying they are human. The thread title is even "Non-Human Persons". There's also similar misconceptions that saying "Persons" or "People" = humans. The term 'People' shouldn't really even be used; 'Persons' is the closest because 'individual' can apply too broadly to have enough of a connotation for what is meant.

So, can I have links to the works done on dolphin language and how they have names and all ? How was this discovered ? Have we tried to communicate with them already ? If so, what have we managed to say to each other ? Do they talk about abstract stuff ? Or are they very limited in the information they exchange ?

Somebody mentioned it earlier and said he could dig up the sources if asked, so I ask.

Ready for some research spam?

Some of this has to be taken with a grain of salt. Some of this was done by not-necessarily-scientists, some of it has been supported by scientists, some of it was conducted by actual scientists, etc. It's a mixed bag of information, some of it only tangentially related to what you were asking. I've actually not seen this research in its article form before, I was referencing a documentary I had watched and some references to such things in other research that I've read before. It's also not the only research on the topic, but it's what I could dig up for the time being. Also take note that not all of this research has been done in the last decade; there have surely been advances since.

http://wakeup-world.com//2011/11/28/the-discovery-of-dolphin-language/
http://www.marinemammal.org/pdfs/Deecke98.pdf
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/289/5483/1355.full.pdf?sid=fa580097-4f24-46cd-be10-e5df8f0ed1c6
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1439-0310.2010.01828.x/full

Interesting stuff: http://www.globalanimal.org/2011/09/30/tail-walking-wild-dolphins-learn-to-river-dance/23568/

Documentary aired by PBS. Can't say what's inside, I haven't watched it, but it might contain some useful information. From what I gathered, it focuses on conservationists, so again with the grains of salt. http://video.pbs.org/video/1099394282/

[King DZA]

I don't really care whether or not they are seen as people, this planet is simply one giant clusterfuck of life, divided into different organic structures perhaps, but it's all a part of the same massive clusterfuck.
I instead judge others by their actions and intentions, as those two things are always present, regardless of what species they belong to, or their level of intelligence. It's why I'm a supporter of cannibalism, and why the "Hurr durr humanz are better than everything else becuz we are" attitude I see so often can shift my mood from placid to pissed off in an incredibly short amount of time.

Also, in regards to dolphins being immoral and whatnot, let's make one thing clear:

All of nature, you, me, the plants, animals, bugs, microscopic organisms, everything, is an asshole. To varying degrees, of course. But assholes nonetheless. No creature survives on this planet without being an asshole to some extent, so pointing the finger at dolphins as a whole for doing immoral things, that humanity itself has practiced(and continues to practice) for almost its entire history, without even completely understanding the dolphins' reasoning first, only makes you an even bigger asshole then you previously were.
The important thing to remember is that, as contradictory as it sounds, just because everyone has to be an asshole sometimes, doesn't mean they can't also be generally good individuals.

[Loud Whispers]

I don't really care whether or not they are seen as people, this planet is simply one giant clusterfuck of life, divided into different organic structures perhaps, but it's all a part of the same massive clusterfuck.

Still matters though

All across Dolfinland, bright blue mammals are fleeing economic turmoil...