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[RysanMarquise]

I have been testing weapon damage properties, and I have noticed an almost strict improvement in damage with lighter weapons -even with blunt weapons.

Can anyone explain this property difference, as it was not the case long ago.

[G-Flex]

Which materials, exactly?

Regarding blunt weapons, common knowledge is still "the heavier, the better". If there's been a change, I don't know what accounts for that change, but it would certainly be welcome realism; it's a tad silly that things like silver and lead are (or were?) such good materials for making warhammers.

[RysanMarquise]

Took the Mace item and reduced its item size to 200, from 800.

Lethality of the iron mace dramatically increased, including the ability to consistently damage through armor.

Changed iron mace to lead mace.

Ability to damage through iron armor was lost.

[G-Flex]

Lower size could cause it to be swung faster, resulting in higher damage up to a certain point.

What happens if you set size really low, like 10 or 5 or something?

[Sorcerer]

Hmm, that might have something to do with the impact area being smaller with a small mace

[G-Flex]

I believe that contact area is in absolute units, though, not relative units. But I could be wrong.

[RysanMarquise]

Extreme-case low size has reduced lethality again.

That said, it shouldn't take 200 size for a dwarf to be swining a weapon at full speed.

[G-Flex]

It could depend on the strength or size of the dwarf in question; there's a fair bit of variability there. Bear in mind that the same weapons are also used by humans, who are larger. 1/4 the size seems pretty severe, though.


What about iron vs. silver weapons at normal weapon size, though? How does that work out?

[RysanMarquise]

My studies on this seem to be as follows:

As most people know, weapon speed is determined by a base value times weapon multiplier. You can move at a percentage speed based upon how strong you are and how heavy the weapon is.

What most people don't know: You begin hitting weapon strength cap very easily with base dwarves. Only the buffest dwarves can swing even mace-sized weapons at full speed. The additional gains you get for damage are such that it is generally very inefficient to use heavy weapons nowadays. Because damage is based upon energy, this means that lighter blunt weapon materials are almost always better, unless you have strength to spare. Relative material hardness seems to play a factor in the ability for blunt weapons to penetrate armor, but not in their damage output. While edged weapons seem to have their bonus damage based upon a multiple of surface area and penetration, blunt weapons seem to gain damage almost strictly from their ability to penetrate armor and flesh. This means that a high contact area bladed weapon is useful and might easily chop off limbs, but a high-contact area blunt weapon is just a recipie for reduced damage. This is not strictly true, but is a solid rule of thumb.

Edged weapons seem to have a bonus damage step before armor. Blunt weapons seem to have a bonus damage step after armor - a multiple of that base damage which went through. Both will penetrate armor at close to exactly the same point given similar contact areas and velocity. Penetration seems to be the source of derived edge weapon bonus damage, but I can't quite get a grasp on its behavior. An edged weapon with penetration 1 is significantly better in most ways than an equivalent blunt weapon. All blunt weapons in game have a higher velocity multiplier than edged-weapon counterparts to deal with this fact.

Blunt weapon penetration does not seem to have a significant effect. Equivalent blunt weapons with values of 1 and 5000 seem to function very similarly.

Knowing this I can approximate most behaviors, but I still only have a small image of the greater picture.

Ironicly, by my estimates, whips represent the best blunt weapons in the game by a pretty wide margin. I don't have too much experience with testing with them, but does that seem consistent with others? They would probably be better mechanically be represented by edged weapons with a large contact surface and nearly no penetration.



That is all my studies have reached for now. Does anyone have a further body of evidence on the subject to agree or disagree with my initial tests?

[G-Flex]

Ironicly, by my estimates, whips represent the best blunt weapons in the game by a pretty wide margin. I don't have too much experience with testing with them, but does that seem consistent with others?

Yeah, this is basically common knowledge. The problem is that DF has no real way of simulating whips properly. Whips hit the enemy at very high speed, which is correct. However, that hit is simulated the same as all other weapons, which is not correct. Whips aren't straight, stiff implements. Only the kinetic energy of the tip itself really hits you; there's no inertia or follow-through like there is with a hammer or sword. So in the end, a whip in DF is more like getting jabbed (or smacked?) with a supersonic staff, or getting shot with a gun or something like that.

[RysanMarquise]

I feel that the whip is accurately modeled by something like this

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_WHIP]
[NAME:whip:whips]
[SIZE:100]
[SKILL:WHIP]
[TWO_HANDED:27500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:22500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[ATTACK:EDGE:90000:1:lash:lashes:NO_SUB:5000]
The edge causes it to split skin, but little else. It is still probably too lethal, but it is far from the death-dealer that a conventional whip represents.

I am considering going through every weapon to make it function properly.

[G-Flex]

I'm a little confused by penetration size, then. I know that an edged attack that doesn't penetrate armor can still confer enough force to, say, break bones underneath, or at least cause bruising. So why does a penetration size of 1 limit that same effect? Why can't a whip with penetration size 1 still break the bones underneath?

[RysanMarquise]

Edge weapons of penetration size 1 use edged weapon force-transfer rates rather than blunt weapon force-transfer weights causing them to be less effective in certain ways. I would contend that most remaining whip deadliness in my version. is that it is somehow iron-tipped.

[Montague]

Just curious, but how does armor penetration work with edged weapons? Does it always convert to a blunt attack, or can armor be penetrated completely and cut/stab past it?

[G-Flex]

As far as I know, armor is treated similarly to tissue layers in that it can be sliced/stabbed clean through. Otherwise, you could never be able to stab someone in the liver with a spear if they were wearing a shirt.