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[Troopperi]

I think that bows need improvements. They are little bit weak, as seen when a marksdwarf has knocked some animal like alligator unsconscious, he shoots and shoots it until he has run out of bolts or the animal has died and still usually not shot (bled to death, suffocated). Of course this is affected by skill but if you would stand in front of unsconscious animal with crossbow, a weapon that pierces armor and killed many knights on battlefield, wouldn't you get that animal shot?

Other thing that there should be more types of bows:

Longbow

My favourite bow. Longbow would be long (as it's name says) powerful bow, made from single piece of wood or sometimes metal (metal bows would need great strenght to draw). Longbow would be great bow with long range, but would need good archer and bowman skills to use effectively.

Shortbow

Short bow made from single piece of wood, weaker and shorter range, but easier to use than longbow (needs lower skills to use effectively).

Composite bow

Short bow made of wood and perhaps from bone? There are many possible combinations for composite bows, and this might be one. More powerful and better range than shortbow.

Crossbow

Powerful bow, that won't need great archery skills to use effectively, but very slow to draw, and needs lots of power.

Of course crossbows might be divided into mechanized arbalests and those drawn with your own muscles.

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And in adventurer, something from using bow. There shoiuld be ability to made non-aimed fast shot, giving just the direction to shoot (good against masses of enemies) and aimed shot, that would be slower to do.

And, have you ever shooted a approaching enemy, and got killed by it before you shoot it? You should have chance to cancel drawing and shooting, if the enemy gets too close of you (if you shoot, the game would not straight jump to situation after shooting, but you should use .-key to pass some frames before, and then you could drop your bow and draw your sword instead)

Hope you understand, because I'm not so good in english

[peskyninja]

The only problem with bows IMO are the few modding possibilities (You can't change reload speed,range, smoke+projectile without making crazy temperature stuff.) and the fact that ammo (Bolts and arrows) Usually almost never get stuck. Wich is pretty unrealistic because medieval bolts and arrows were designed to stuck.

[obradenj]

composite bows where made from things like rezin soaked cloth and horn with cooked animal cartlige and sinew wraped around it and took like a year to dry all wrapped around strips of wood it was a insanely complicated process something perfect for the dwarfs and as for the deadliness of arrows i suppose you could change the pen area?  if i am saying that right

[NW_Kohaku]

Historically-made composite bows would be a problem in adventuring.  The glue that is used to bind them tends to unbind when you get them wet, which means you wouldn't be able to cross a river with them, and would have to protect them from rain. 

The reason a shortbow would be more reasonable for an adventurer not specializing purely in archery is that longbows tend to be very big and cumbersome.  Unless there were a good way of conveying the notion that it's really hard to store that thing, the problem would be "why use a shortbow at all"... unless we did the standard RPG thing of just restricting longbow use on mounts, although that doesn't matter until adventurers GET mounts.

Also, since when are bows weak?  Bandit bow and crossbowmen are rapid-fire death machines.

[obradenj]

Historically-made composite bows would be a problem in adventuring.  The glue that is used to bind them tends to unbind when you get them wet, which means you wouldn't be able to cross a river with them, and would have to protect them from rain. 

water proof casings or such would be good made with leather cloth and animal fat or some other combination

[NW_Kohaku]

Historically-made composite bows would be a problem in adventuring.  The glue that is used to bind them tends to unbind when you get them wet, which means you wouldn't be able to cross a river with them, and would have to protect them from rain. 

water proof casings or such would be good made with leather cloth and animal fat or some other combination

Yes, but you would have to actually store that bow away in that casing.  Right now, adventurers just hold their weapons out at all times. 

[obradenj]

dint toady say he was going to make it to where you should store your weapons away in a sheath or risk rust?

[smeeprocket]

Historically-made composite bows would be a problem in adventuring.  The glue that is used to bind them tends to unbind when you get them wet, which means you wouldn't be able to cross a river with them, and would have to protect them from rain. 

The reason a shortbow would be more reasonable for an adventurer not specializing purely in archery is that longbows tend to be very big and cumbersome.  Unless there were a good way of conveying the notion that it's really hard to store that thing, the problem would be "why use a shortbow at all"... unless we did the standard RPG thing of just restricting longbow use on mounts, although that doesn't matter until adventurers GET mounts.

Also, since when are bows weak?  Bandit bow and crossbowmen are rapid-fire death machines.

Longbows took more strength to fire, and you'd need more distance. There is a way to relate these things. The problem I see is that they really should be able to fire off the map, and that would take extra coding (I don't know what I'm talking about though, so?)

[IT 000]

Of course, let us not forget that bowmen can shoot many times faster then crossbow men. But at the moment they all shoot at the same painstaking rate.

Additionally when you or your dwarves fires a bolt or an arrow, they stand still in place (presumably reloading and petting their cats) for several seconds. This means mean ol' nasty goblin can run over and make Urist McCrossbowman ahem* very unhappy. While this is realistic for high powered crossbows, which required you to crank the bolt to reload, and thus immobile. Bowmen on the other hand should be able to run in, fire, then retreat while reloading. Even then, not all crossbows needed to be cranked, some just required the user to pull back, latch the rope behind the latch and set the bolt in, however they were weaker. This additional crossbow and reloading while moving should be possible.

Overall though, I like the idea that each bow should have it's own advantages and disadvantages, partially to prevent the player from saying 'Oh this bow is the best, I'll outfit everyone with it' but also to provide some variety depending on your play style.

The reason a shortbow would be more reasonable for an adventurer not specializing purely in archery is that longbows tend to be very big and cumbersome.  Unless there were a good way of conveying the notion that it's really hard to store that thing, the problem would be "why use a shortbow at all"... unless we did the standard RPG thing of just restricting longbow use on mounts, although that doesn't matter until adventurers GET mounts.

One disadvantage of the longbow is that they aren't supposed to be exceptionally powerful at mid range (Not cottonballs in the wind, but compared to Composite bows which are designed to pack punches at that range...) Rather they volleyed arrows to the enemy side en-masse using the terminal velocity to gain speed and deal damage. All while staying out of range due to their increased size and drawback. So in theory, composite bows and short bows should be more powerful once you close the distance. Also Longbowmen were more difficult to train, perhaps we could have some sort of skill floor for bows where a competent bowmen might be fantastic with the short bow, but absolutely terrible with the longbow. I have a few ideas for other pros and cons;

Long Bows : Longer Range, weaker at mid-close range, huge disadvantage for being on a mounted unit.
Short Bow : Better at mid range, weaker at long, slight disadvantage for being on a mounted unit.
Composite Bows : Better at close - mid range, bonus for being on horseback (Mongolians).

[Eagleon]

I really like the idea of cancelling your shot. Could expand that to having sliced up phases for shooting - grabbing arrow/bolt, drawing string, aiming, release. Each phase would have different speeds depending on the qualities of the weapon, so that aiming takes longer for heavy weapons, even if they have weak draws, and thrown weapons would take longer to release. Obviously it would make using ranged weapons in adventure mode a tad slower to go through, but the extra control would be worth it, especially if arrows flew off wildly (perhaps to hit unexpected targets) in the aiming phase if you/the enemy were killed/disabled/disarmed.

I agree that the problem is more with the AI though - a dwarf that's put a crossbow bolt through a goblin will currently keep shooting even if they've inflicted a fatal wound, rather than more sensibly retreating and letting them bleed out. Better squad mechanics and tactics would be awesome here - either archers positioning themselves on high ground behind a melee flank, or retreating behind it when enemies get too close and switching to a melee weapon/fetching ammo from a stack the squad has put down, or an ammo stockpile if they're behind fortifications.

Other than that, I think it's weird that material type makes such a huge difference for bolts/arrows. Beyond making it through the armor without shattering, it doesn't matter too much if an arrow is made of flint, copper, or steel. All three should be similarly sharp - the power of the bow and the weight of the projectile has much more to do with how much damage is done once it's made an opening. I'd like for material and quality to have more of an effect on accuracy than anything, and that would automatically make kobold/goblin archers much less formidable, and put you in the position to do better.

[NW_Kohaku]

There definitely shouldn't be a bonus for being on horseback - and longbows shouldn't be capable of being fired from horseback at all, and all but the lightest crossbows shouldn't be reloadable, since even medium-strength pull crossbows had a stirrup and required foot power to reload, which is basically impossible to do reliably on a horse.  Simply being able to fire the shortbow from horseback at all is the only real bonus you need.

Further, longbows are just plain bulky - usually at least as tall as the person meant to be firing it, if not taller, and as such, it should be a serious encumberance to an adventurer trying to tramp around swimming in rivers or sewers, hiking up and down mountains, etc. 

[catoblepas]

There definitely shouldn't be a bonus for being on horseback - and longbows shouldn't be capable of being fired from horseback at all, and all but the lightest crossbows shouldn't be reloadable, since even medium-strength pull crossbows had a stirrup and required foot power to reload, which is basically impossible to do reliably on a horse.  Simply being able to fire the shortbow from horseback at all is the only real bonus you need.

Further, longbows are just plain bulky - usually at least as tall as the person meant to be firing it, if not taller, and as such, it should be a serious encumberance to an adventurer trying to tramp around swimming in rivers or sewers, hiking up and down mountains, etc. 

Crossbows can indeed be fired from horseback. While stirrup, belt hook, and windlass operated crossbows require the operator to remain on foot, the lever operated cho ko nu repeating crossbow and ratchet and crannequin operated crossbows do no require this. Mounted crossbowmen were used for a period of time in the middle ages/renaissance as they posessed significant mobility combined with firepower greater than that of the longbow.

For its part, the longbow was used in mounted combat in the hundred years war, although mostly in skirmishes and raids, from what I understand, and as a method of transporting archers to more advantageous positions for firing (at which point they would disembark) Longbowmen and crossbowmen were most often used on foot during combat, but this does not mean that mounted longbowmen and crossbowmen did not exist, mounted crossbowmen in particular seem to have been rather prevalent during later periods when armor was well developed but before firearms had developed to the point of outstripping crossbows.

IMO there needs to be an overhaul of how armor/clothes and weapons work in DF. Iron bows are just silly, and there definately needs to be soem way to differentiate ranged weapons on criteria such as range, accuracy, and reload time. Right now the only thing that makes them different is the skills they use, the damage their ammo does, and how much useless they are as melee weapons.


Crossbow firing sequence should be:
1) Draw string Dwarf has to remain still when doing this (cannot walk/run/ride horse) This step will take a long time
2) Load bolt (this makes the crossbow fully ready to fire, the marksdwarf can fire at any time after this action is completed) takes as much time as knocking an arrow
3) Fire arrow (takes as long as it does in vanilla)
Downsides would be having to unload and release the string before storage, and the long loading time. When item degradation is implemented, they would likely be rather suseptable to water damage. High power, high accruacy, long range, low rate of fire. requires both metal/horn/wood and wood to make, strength of bow dependant on metal/horn/wood type.

Bow firing sequence:
1) Knock arrow (Takes a short amount of time, as long as loading a crossbow bolt.)
2) Draw (takes a short amount of time, renders bow 'ready to fire' similar to loading, but can only held for a certain amount of time before the archer must release, dependant on strength. Low strength/large draw bows require archer to remain stationary in this state)
3) Fire arrow (takes as long as it does in vanilla)
Downsides would be less accuracy, range and power compared to crossbow. Archer cannto remain in 'ready to fire' state indefinately. Easier to make and maintain. Only wood or horn(for compound bows) can be used. medium power, medium accuracy, medium range, high rate of fire.

 
Blowgun firing sequence:
1) Load blowgun (takes a short amount of time, makes blowgun 'ready to fire)
2) Fire blowgun (takes as much time as it does currently)
Downsides would be poor range, power, accuracy. Very easy to make. Can be made out of many materials. Low power, low accuracy, low range, very high rate of fire.

Thoughts?

[NW_Kohaku]

I actually start thinking about Mount and Blade again reading this...  That game makes a really fun concept out of the mounted archery (and makes it awfully difficult to master).  Light crossbows from horseback, while not my particular choice of specialization (I went for the compound bow) were fun to test out. 

I didn't consider the crannequin, but I count those repeating lever-operated crossbows as basically light crossbows, as that lever action can't really store the same amount of pull a stirrup or wench does. 

Anyway, much of what you are saying makes good sense to me and probably everyone, as it's similar to what I frequently see... it's just got to wait for Toady to get around to rewriting some of the military arc stuff.

[obradenj]

longbows where used in chariots i believe so there is that but that is also way down the line.

[catoblepas]

Yes, chariots and war elephants would be much appreciated at some point. The mount system as is right now is rather lacking compared to other parts of the game. There isn't even a skill for riding yet, while we have knapping, masonry, mining, engraving, stonecrafting, gem cutting & gem setting where working with stone is concerned. Heck, we have three skills for fishing right now. IMO fish cleaning and fish dissection would be better served lumped under butchering. Hopefully Toady does a overhaul of the way skills work at some point...I digress. I would think that if chariot/horse/elephant/beak dog archery were to come into play, we would be looking at a reduction in the speed at which a bow/crossbow/blowgun would be used based upon the users riding skill and skill with their weapon. This would be reduced if the mount had some sort of platform from which the archer could fire, such as a chariot or howdah. The type of weapon would also affect how much of a penalty the rider takes-for instance, for a longbow the archer might have to stand up in their stirrups, which would require more skill in riding and shooting to offset the difficulty of doing so.

I think that having multiple steps to fire a weapon would definately increase the risk-reward factor to playing with ranged weapons and would justify their lethality. In fortress mode, for instance, it could be advantageous to place crossbow dwarves as sentries in towers where the fortifications and their range can keep them out of harm's way while they reload their crossbows, delivering precise, powerful attacks from afar-good for taking out tough enemies lone monsters, and hard armor. Meanwhere rank and file dwarves might be armed with cheap wooden bows (since they should be easier to produce than crossbows), bringing down their enemies with sheer volume of fire. Meanwhile the elven assassin diplomat carries a preloaded and poisoned blowgun up his sleeve in case your mayor turns down his tree-cutting quota...

In adventure mode, the advantages and disadvantages would become even more obvious. Sneaking up on a goblin sentry with a loaded crossbow would have its advantages-even if you miss, will he have enough time to claw his bow out of its case to return fire before you can attack again? Likewise there would be player dilemmas-do you continue to load your crossbow while the wolves close in, or do you drop it and draw your sword? Wait on the other side of that corner with your arrow knocked and bow drawn, waiting for your foe to come around the bend, but possibly risking arm fatigue and fouling your accuracy-or do you run around the corner and try to fire first, confident that you will be faster on the draw? I think it would go a long ways to differentiating thrown weapons from fired ones if just a few changes to how they fuction.


In summary, I'd like to see preperation tasks before weapons can be fired, appropriate materials for ranged weapons (no steel non-artifact bows), and some features to make the different ranged weapons behave differently-after all, hammers and axes work differently, why not bows and blowguns?

Thoughts? Critiques?