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[Proteus]

Which is why crossbows (among other technologies) pretty much killed the armored knight. They could have probably made armor capable of withstanding a crossbow bolt...but it would have been un-useable on foot or on horseback. And real knights were freaking conditioned to wear armor, so that speaks to the amount of material it would have taken.

Not to forget that in contrast to Archery, which took years to learn (and to develop the necessary muscles),
it took just a few days or weeks to teach a peasant how to consistendly hit someone by shooting with a crossbow.

Gave peasants in uprisings/revolutions much better chances to be a real danger...
no surprise the pope allowed their use only against heathens

[nenjin]

Not to forget that in contrast to Archery, which took years to learn (and to develop the necessary muscles),
it took just a few days or weeks to teach a peasant how to consistendly hit someone by shooting with a crossbow.

Actually, IIRC, wasn't it a crime in some places for crossbows to be owned by peasants, for exactly this reason? Or was that the Longbow? Or both? No lord wants to get a fist-sized hole punched in his chest by a dirt-farming yokel.

their were several sqauds in the scottish army based around defeating heavy ranged weapons. scots had some big ass people so they field tested employing troops armored extremely well, turns out it worked. just took a few minutes for the soldiers to reach the marksmen.

Got a source? Am curious about the details.

[Dwarfoloid]

(http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/Champ_Bane_Archery-Testing.pdf)

That study really needs to list detailed particulars of the armour and arrows, both material composition and hardness.

I still think lasers are better than longbows and crossbows.

[Proteus]

Not to forget that in contrast to Archery, which took years to learn (and to develop the necessary muscles),
it took just a few days or weeks to teach a peasant how to consistendly hit someone by shooting with a crossbow.

Actually, IIRC, wasn't it a crime in some places for crossbows to be owned by peasants, for exactly this reason? Or was that the Longbow? Or both? No lord wants to get a fist-sized hole punched in his chest by a dirt-farming yokel.

...

Depends on the location I assume...
I have no doubt that the possession of crossbows was forbissen in many parts of europe.

As for the longbow ...
at least in england it was the other way round ...
due to the long training times all of the peasants (unless they had disabilities) were required to train with the longbow (in order to be ready to serve as recruits in the kings army) 
one of the kings even forbade a popular sport (soccer if I remember correctly) because playing/watching it kept his peasants from regularly practicing with the longbow

(http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/Champ_Bane_Archery-Testing.pdf)

That study really needs to list detailed particulars of the armour and arrows, both material composition and hardness.

I still think lasers are better than longbows and crossbows.

Unless the target is encased in an armor that acts as perfect mirror for the wavelength of the laser

[dirty foot]

(http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/Champ_Bane_Archery-Testing.pdf)

That study really needs to list detailed particulars of the armour and arrows, both material composition and hardness.

I still think lasers are better than longbows and crossbows.

In all honesty, there's really no need for calculations concerning hardness. He only emulated the hardness and resistance of the human body (for which he provided mathematical analysis), everything else was copied item-by-item. The variations in steel quality matter little when most armor of that period was iron anyway.

The only thing that seemed to work well was a coat of plates, but even then I'd hypothesize there would have been issues of internal bleeding or organ damage due to the compression of an individual plate. People forget that sudden impacts to our bodies can also kill us without even breaking the skin. I think this is the common source of contention for people on the forums, irritated that the only way to kill a person with blunt damage seems to be skull-fracture-tearing-brain-related.

[bombzero]

as another interesting aside, rank and file bowman fired in an arc, and often sucked ass with a bow, they just had to draw, fire, and repeat, hitting a group of hundreds.
thus, most of the force is wasted in the arc, some is gained in the fall.

crossbow men fired straight at the target, bringing the full force of the bolt into it.

[Malkenon]

i didnt have time to read the studies that were posted, but there are two really key things i havent heard mentioned in the little discussion about crossbows (and even regular bows) and their ability to punch through armor -- range and arrow type. a crossbow fired from 20 yards that squarely hits will most definitely be able to pierce through a breastplate and multiple layers of mail underneath. it will be much easier as well if it is actually an armor piercing arrow rather than a broadhead as it wastes essentially zero energy pushing the links aside.

on another note, being fired in an arc or nearly straight (crossbows still needed to be arced at least a little, laws of physics (gravity) and such) isnt as important as the overall distance the arrow/bolt is travelling, which admittedly will usually be greater by some amount for the arced arrow. this is because all of the energy lost from the arrow in its flight up will be restored by the pull of gravity on its way back down - unless it hits a bird in mid air -so the lost energy from the projectiles would be due to air resistance.

a little cool thing i was taught: archers/bowmen, when firing at plate armored targets, would put dabs of bees or osme other kind of wax on the arrow tip to help it stick to the armor and not be deflected -- because thats where the real strength of plate is, deflecting attacks   i dont know if the waxed tips actually helped, but its something they tried!!

btw, first time poster on any forum other than Mount & Blade. realy enjoying the game, and even adventurer mode! just wish i wouldnt keep hitting roadblocks or dying so horribly.....

[friendguy13]

Not to forget that in contrast to Archery, which took years to learn (and to develop the necessary muscles),
it took just a few days or weeks to teach a peasant how to consistendly hit someone by shooting with a crossbow.

Actually, IIRC, wasn't it a crime in some places for crossbows to be owned by peasants, for exactly this reason? Or was that the Longbow? Or both? No lord wants to get a fist-sized hole punched in his chest by a dirt-farming yokel.

...

Depends on the location I assume...
I have no doubt that the possession of crossbows was forbissen in many parts of europe.

As for the longbow ...
at least in england it was the other way round ...
due to the long training times all of the peasants (unless they had disabilities) were required to train with the longbow (in order to be ready to serve as recruits in the kings army) 
one of the kings even forbade a popular sport (soccer if I remember correctly) because playing/watching it kept his peasants from regularly practicing with the longbow

(http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/Champ_Bane_Archery-Testing.pdf)

That study really needs to list detailed particulars of the armour and arrows, both material composition and hardness.

I still think lasers are better than longbows and crossbows.

Unless the target is encased in an armor that acts as perfect mirror for the wavelength of the laser

Actually at one time in English history all sports were forbidden on Sunday except archery to get people to practice at longbow competitions so there would be plenty of possible recruits in case of war.

[dirty foot]

~snip~
a little cool thing i was taught: archers/bowmen, when firing at plate armored targets, would put dabs of bees or osme other kind of wax on the arrow tip to help it stick to the armor and not be deflected -- because thats where the real strength of plate is, deflecting attacks   i dont know if the waxed tips actually helped, but its something they tried!!

btw, first time poster on any forum other than Mount & Blade. realy enjoying the game, and even adventurer mode! just wish i wouldnt keep hitting roadblocks or dying so horribly.....

Adding to that, apparently another thing they did (inadvertently) was stab all their arrows in the ground for easier retrieval and nocking. According to historians, this may have led to a lot more deaths from infection than actual blood loss or organ damage. Jack coats were quite common back then and could stop an arrow easier than plate in many instances, but the arrow still would push through juuuuust a bit.

Second, welcome to the forums! I love Mount and Blade, especially the combat. Adventure mode here can be brutal, and it's just as important here as in Mount and Blade to get at least a few people to tag along with you. Meatshields are in high demand.

[Iapetus]

Actually, IIRC, wasn't it a crime in some places for crossbows to be owned by peasants, for exactly this reason? Or was that the Longbow? Or both? No lord wants to get a fist-sized hole punched in his chest by a dirt-farming yokel.

According to one book I read, in medieval England, owning military weapons was legal (and sometimes even compulsory, in the case of longbows) for the common people, as they would be expected to be able to fight for their lord or king of necessary.  Crossbows on the other hand were viewed as hunting weapons, and so only legal for people who would be allowed to hunt (usually the upper classes).  Various other weapons (and concealed body armour) were restricted or prohibited on the grounds that they were mostly only useful for criminals, not in warfare.  (But apparently both these prohibitions, and the laws saying everyone had to own a longbow and practice regularly were frequently ignored).

[WaffleEggnog]

My usual setup is Proficiant in Dodger, shield user, armour user and weapon skill of choice, Adequete swimmer, Novice observer, novice reader