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[Nokao]

[This is mostly for Toady One but everyone could want to partecipate.]
I already know that you will not like my opinion ... but tonight for some reason I couldn't sleep and ... here I am. I must write that.

After Minecraft, now a new game (Terraria) clearly copied content from Dwarf Fortress and is making a lot of money out of it.
With around 2.7 millions copies sold, we can calculate ~ > 10 millions of $ of income in 2 years for 1 year of development.
This NOT because their developers are better -of course Toady One is a genius- but because they invested MANY money and had a staff of ~ 50 workers that made possible the full realization of that 2 games, their content, and their websites/commercial promotion in only 1 year (each).

What about Dwarf Fortress ?
current version is: 0.34.11 (June 4, 2012) when I started to play 10-hours-a-day to DF.
I see from the blog that "[developer just corrected some bugs about] guards and similar critters to think correctly moving forward [in adventure mode]".
GREAT !!! So, only other 15 years of development, and maybe we will see a 1.0 playable version.

Also the game is unplayable with other tools that are not included in the original game, like Dwarf Therapist, extra tools for Sounds (that works reading the logfile...), and was really enriched by other stuff like Masterwork Mods and other graphical texture packs.
So again, Dwarf Fortress was enriched by it's community, that couldn't give their contribute in the source code because this is a closed-source project, and tryed in many different and found many genial ways to improve it.
But it's past and future was and will always be strictly chained to his creator, that seems to have decided to keep going like it was until now, programming it alone, day by day, as an all-life-job.

This is NOT another  "please make it open source post", when I first discovered Dwarf Fortress I tought that open source was the better option for Dwarf Fortress, now I changed idea.
I would like Dwarf Fortress to become a new kick-ass amazing game, like it is already for it's engine, but with a better and modern gaming interface (even with Indie or ASCII style if you like it like that).
Then I will be one the first to buy it.

But ... I don't want to make a long post, so here are my schematic opinions about "future of the fortress":

OPTIONS FOR THE PROJECT

• Toady One makes a "kickstarter project" and gain millions of dollars, like the guys of Torment did, then make a huge company of software development and accelerate the process of development under his command
• Toady One affiliate with some company (like Curse and Re-Logic) that clearly played his game, then made commercial and high profits with Minecraft/Terraria/Gnomoria doing something different, but clearly inspired on his ideas. (the purpose of this post is not to explain what they copied, but I'm sure all of you know what I'm talking about)
• Toady One keeps going like now, his child Dwarf Fortress will slowly decay and loose the community in favor of other games, until Toady One eventually dye of old age / stop developing because other projects copy all his content, and make a game with SAME game-play.

PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS (Mighty Toady One, only YOU know what to do with your masterpiece game, but I want to write also some suggestions as a former software-developer myself):

• Assuming the new budget will be enough to hire MANY other programmers, Dwarf Fortress should be re-written in it's core then include the old scripting to "start from a good point"
• During this phase, the software should became multithreading of course, and also native support for sounds (not with logfile!!... maybe invent a TCP/IP protocol for that) and better instruments for modders like "editable build menu", "removable features", a bloody quest-interface that could evolve the jail-system, etc.
• IMHO, it should also become a client-server based game, not only for the FUTURE multiplayer compatibility (adventure mode), but expecially to make his core launchable by a server and playable on many different types of clients (isometric view, 3D view, and also old fashioned 2D view with or without graphical textures or ASCII version). At this inventing TCP/IP protocols for separate sounds, video, browsing content (legend mode) etc.
• Toady One should definitely take under his wings all the modders that gave SO MUCH to Dwarf Fortress only editing source-files, the few I know are (content creators) Meph, Putnam, but there is many people that actually developed software for DF hacking it and improving our experience (sounds, dwarf therapist, 3D clients, stonesense, etc)

With this post of course, I'm officially (sadly) stopping to create my worlds inside Dwarf Fortress, but I will keep dreaming them and designing them on paper when I suddenly wake up in the night.
Until another commercial copy of Dwarf Fortress, (this time with same gameplay), will come out from big-profit companies that can look ahead.
(oh please ... don't you hear that coming, after Minecraft/Terraria and Gnomoria ?)

[DG]

C'mon man. As a Bay Watcher you should know better than posting that in this thread. I won't comment on your opinion or ideas specifically, but I'll remind you that this thread is best kept free of suggestions that are likely to derail it, never mind how much you believe your suggestions relate to the future of the game.

[Manveru Taurënér]

I'd love to respond and explain why most of your views are way wrong, answered already and would imo probably kill off much of what makes this game awesome, but THIS is not the thread for this. You're better off reposting this in one of the other gazillion threads on the topic (or better yet read one of them).

[Nokao]

@Manveru Taurënér & @DG : I think I am on topic because my opinion about "the future of the fortress" is that "there is no future for the fortress".

Anyway, my only target with this post is to say hello to Toady One, and thank all the community for this game that I played for more that one year without ever getting bored.
I'm just more attracted by more commercial games that are stealing from Dwarf Fortress many ideas, making them look better even if their not their own.

I'm not polemic. There is no need to answer, or derail the topic of this thread.

[tfaal]

@Manveru Taurënér & @DG : I think I am on topic because my opinion about "the future of the fortress" is that "there is no future for the fortress".

The purpose of the thread is to discuss current developments

Nope.

[smjjames]

Uh, Nokao, that deserves it's own thread, also:

1. Minecraft may have been released slightly later than the earliest DF stuff, but both are about equally old and as far as I can tell, was not based off of DF. In fact, I think development wise they are actually around the same age.

2. Terraria isn't that new and is obviously based off of MC, tell me what content you think was copied from dwarf fortress.

3. There is no three and if there was, it'd be get your own thread.

[King Mir]

1. Minecraft may have been released slightly later than the earliest DF stuff, but both are about equally old and as far as I can tell, was not based off of DF. In fact, I think development wise they are actually around the same age.

By all accounts I've heard, Minecraft did take inspiration from DF. I don't think that has any larger implications however. It's just another sandbox game.

[smjjames]

1. Minecraft may have been released slightly later than the earliest DF stuff, but both are about equally old and as far as I can tell, was not based off of DF. In fact, I think development wise they are actually around the same age.

By all accounts I've heard, Minecraft did take inspiration from DF. I don't think that has any larger implications however. It's just another sandbox game.

Yeah, taking inspiration is one thing and copying directly is another. I looked at the MC wiki about pre-classic and Notch did take inspiration from DF as far as resources, but its not the only thing that he took inspiration from.

DF has given inspiration to many developers and yet it remains it's own unique thing.

Anyways, this topic is getting derailed.

Also, lol on the latest devlog with sleep schedules. Did you know that the fans at the stadium there in Seattle recently broke a crowd noise record and registered as a magnitude one or so quake on a nearby seismometer?

[monk12]

1. Minecraft may have been released slightly later than the earliest DF stuff, but both are about equally old and as far as I can tell, was not based off of DF. In fact, I think development wise they are actually around the same age.

By all accounts I've heard, Minecraft did take inspiration from DF. I don't think that has any larger implications however. It's just another sandbox game.

Yeah, Notch says he got inspiration from DF, but the only gameplay similarities I see are "survive by crafting in a sandbox," which is hardly a unique gameplay mechanic, and blocks/tiles, which again yeah no. Since the dev practices are practically polar opposites, I'm guessing that's not the form of inspiration either.

[lue]

This is NOT another  "please make it open source post", when I first discovered Dwarf Fortress I tought that open source was the better option for Dwarf Fortress, now I changed idea.

Don't worry, it's only another "please hire more people for awesomer game" post .

Just out of curiosity, have there been any changes to the layout of existing structures in adventure mode, either to accommodate new features or fix old bugs? I'm thinking of if, for example, human keeps are now octagonal, or temples are no longer open-air, that sort of thing. I'd also ask if there are plans at any point to allow greater variation in how things are built, but I'd actually be surprised if that wasn't already a planned thing .

[smirk]

Next up we'll experiment with how my daytime sleep schedule interacts with neighbors, their television and a Sunday Seahawks game. Previously when I've tested this, the sleep job cancelled, I couldn't crash again, and there was lag all day. This time I've been forewarned about the test conditions, so hopefully I can have better results.

Oi. Flashbacks to student housing, is that. Best of luck; hopefully your bed is more than 4 tiles away from their TV.

[Anatoli]

So any knowledge on how much exploration (number of cities) the game can handle, and exactly how many resources will a city eat? With the game set to become even slower as cities are explored, it might be a disincentive to explore many different civilizations in favor of staying in a few cities. And is it going to affect dwarf mode? I'm not dissatisfied with the changes, I'd just like to be aware of the dangers of starting a world for too long, or starting a fort after playing adventure mode. (In case Toady doesn't, would be nice to have some !Science! done on this after release.)

[Putnam]

So any knowledge on how much exploration (number of cities) the game can handle

3 GB.

With the game set to become even slower as cities are explored, it might be a disincentive to explore many different civilizations in favor of staying in a few cities.

Consider that an entire year of worldgen tends to take 10 seconds on a sufficient computer; it won't be that big an issue.

And is it going to affect dwarf mode? I'm not dissatisfied with the changes, I'd just like to be aware of the dangers of starting a world for too long, or starting a fort after playing adventure mode. (In case Toady doesn't, would be nice to have some !Science! done on this after release.)

Probably not performance-wise, no.

[Cruxador]

1. Minecraft may have been released slightly later than the earliest DF stuff, but both are about equally old and as far as I can tell, was not based off of DF. In fact, I think development wise they are actually around the same age.

Wikipedia says that Notch began work on Minecraft in 2009, making it six years newer than DF. That's a fair while in video game time. Perhaps more pertinently, it also started about half a year after DF got popular on the site where Minecraft first kicked off. You can also see other parallels, like adding a hell-realm right after Toady did. Let's look at the words of the dev though:

http://notch.tumblr.com/post/113252305/credits-due
Notch cites infiniminer as the inspiration for the graphical appearance and the "terrain deformation", whatever that might mean. Dwarf Fortress, on the other hand, is cited as the inspiration for the gameplay. It is old and describes that gameplay as a future thing. Now that we're in the future, we can clearly see that, while Notch isn't nearly on Toady's level, this has remained more or less the case as it became a current thing.

Over here
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27719/Interview_Markus_Notch_Persson_Talks_Making_Minecraft.php
I found a pretty good quote. "Dwarf Fortress and roguelikes in general are some of the biggest inspirations for the gameplay of Minecraft, and Toady One is a true hero." and Notch also cites DF as one of his favorite modern games.

Some minor details aside, the major difference is that Minecraft is very accessibility-oriented, and they sort of gave up development before including most promised features. Minecraft isn't a direct "DF but for casuals" like Towns or Gnomoria, but that doesn't mean it didn't get at least the start of its massive dosh tsunami on DF's coattails.

[Anatoli]

Putnam: Well, the devlog does talk Toady doing his best to limit the numbers of historical figures, so yes, even if it probably doesn't have any effect on performance, there's still something to be said for intensive exploration that leads to a huge rise in historical figures that leads to much more memory hogging. And the raw number of 3 GB or the data on worldgen isn't really useful here, since we're talking about the stuff the game has to add after we begin playing it.