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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3837835 times)

Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2055 on: May 11, 2012, 10:19:22 pm »

Regarding the contents of minecarts flying out and hurting stuff, can this only happen with items launched from a crashing minecart or is this now applied to all falling/flying items?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2056 on: May 11, 2012, 10:37:06 pm »

What would happen if you put a prisoner's cage on a cart and launched it off the map?  For that matter, what would happen to dwarves that got launched off the map?  Or artifacts?

What if you built a fortress at the edge of the world, and then tried to launch yourself out of it in adventure mode?

Awww... That would have been a lovely science project to try out when the new release came...

It's always so fun to try testing the things Toady never thought of to see how robust the DF code is. 
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Greiger

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2057 on: May 11, 2012, 10:45:53 pm »

My guess is a non damaging loss of all momentum.  Kind of like what happens currently when a small creature is thrown by something large into the map edge.   They kind of hover there for a moment, apperantly adding to the number of tiles traveled internally without actually going anyplace until they reach the 'distance' they were supposed to be thrown to and then fall harmlessly to the ground.

I've had guard cats and dogs and other such creatures live troll attacks that way.  They get thrown into a map edge, and spend long enough in flying stasis for the troll to find a new target, and then harmlessly go prone, before getting up and fleeing.   Can't be a pleasant experience, but better than exploding against a tree.
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mek42

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2058 on: May 11, 2012, 10:51:25 pm »

Could the animal training civilization experience system be expanded to metallurgy?  Maybe we need to learn how to make steel and maybe someday we can learn to smelt cobalt.  And then maybe cobalt steel which is better than steel.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2059 on: May 11, 2012, 11:15:01 pm »

Could the animal training civilization experience system be expanded to metallurgy?  Maybe we need to learn how to make steel and maybe someday we can learn to smelt cobalt.  And then maybe cobalt steel which is better than steel.

There are several suggestion threads that cover the nature of learning or "tech trees", such as this one, which is active now: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=109129.0

The thing is, tech tree ideas generally aren't very popular among DF players, although metallurgy is an area where there might be more room than others. 
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EmeraldWind

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2060 on: May 12, 2012, 12:25:22 am »

Could the animal training civilization experience system be expanded to metallurgy?  Maybe we need to learn how to make steel and maybe someday we can learn to smelt cobalt.  And then maybe cobalt steel which is better than steel.

There are several suggestion threads that cover the nature of learning or "tech trees", such as this one, which is active now: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=109129.0

The thing is, tech tree ideas generally aren't very popular among DF players, although metallurgy is an area where there might be more room than others.
I imagine the biggest trip up with tech trees is that people don't want to have to grind a skill to obtain a level in competence, but I like the idea in someways due to the fact it can be done a little differently than normal.

Like in animal training, eventually training a Black Bear should improve a general Bear training skill which in turn allows you to train other bears, like say Grizzly Bear more easily allowing you to gain skill in the specific species easier. Though this would require defining creatures to a Genus-level (not necessarily a literal scientifically defined Genus, ie Owlbears or Panda Bears can be considered Bears for the purpose of being a Bear-like creature). On that note, it could work like spheres (but spheres players can define if they create a whole new class of creature) and stack several onto a creature to show how it relates and how experience in training grows.  For example, specializing in creatures that are Bears are possible, but bears are also Carnivorous Mammals.  Knowing how to deal with one type of carnivorous mammals should be able to supply some experience with others, but not necessarily a lot of experience. So in my idea, the skill tree works backwards. You train a specific animal, but gain experience in related less specific fields which in turn allows for easier training of other creatures later on.

Granted, this is so complicated I wouldn't expect Toady to pull this kind of overhaul into a system he just added for a while(read: years). But it is food for thought, y'know. This system allows for a lot of interesting potential in how you approach your world if it is further expanded. I said before, this system could be used to give different civs of the same species a unique culture. Even now you can already see a bit of this. My current civ lives on the border of a glacier biome and have adapted to being able to training some of the creatures found there. The other civ I did a check embark on was on the border of a jungle and had a good deal of lion and tiger training going, iirc. (That said, is there a way to check a civs training levels without embarking?)

I'm starting to train some Grizzlies recently, I caught some war Grizzlies when the elves attacked and one had babies. You know the cubs were immediately domesticated! They received their mother's training from the elves, so all I had to do was break the babies born in my fort and they are nice little puppies! Now I can turn all the elves' hard work against them in a single generation! MUWHAHAHAHA! Edit: In fact, I'm planning on making a War Grizzly Production Plant with the War Grizzlies I caught. The cubs are a cinch to train, then I wait until they are old enough for WAR!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 12:28:27 am by EmeraldWind »
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2061 on: May 12, 2012, 01:57:40 am »

Regarding the contents of minecarts flying out and hurting stuff, can this only happen with items launched from a crashing minecart or is this now applied to all falling/flying items?
My guess is that its stems from the Minecart, so no. This is beside the parabolic arcs, which applies to all things in uncontrolled flight.

I think my guess is pretty right on, because anything else that Toady and Threetoe added, would have parallel in adventure mode, which is something they've stated, (at least explicitly for siege weapons), they wanted to avoid for this release for expediency.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 04:28:12 pm by MrWiggles »
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orius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2062 on: May 12, 2012, 03:27:36 am »

It's Mt. Nevermind.  Only more dwarven, and with more magma.

That really doesn't improve my mental image of it.   :P
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2063 on: May 12, 2012, 10:15:37 am »

How difficult would it be to add an Island/Region toggle to "Create New World"?

Island worlds tend to result in caverns that span over a hundred Z-levels, leading to much higher RAM usage (and much earlier FPS death), while "region" worlds are more likely to give shallower embark regions (e.g. 50 Z-levels between the surface and the magma sea); as a result, I have to use Advanced World Gen to make non-island worlds, making it much more difficult to customize other properties such as savagery and mineral scarcity.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2064 on: May 12, 2012, 10:40:41 am »

How difficult would it be to add an Island/Region toggle to "Create New World"?
Seems that Toady is for it, and it doesn't seem to be hard. It's probably just a priority thing.

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Will we ever be able to choose between Region and Island in the simplified "Create New World Now!" parameters?Currently, if you wanted to gen a region; one must go into the "Advanced Parameters." This is kind of a pain, since you also have to manually change the otherwise simplified parameters. Changing even simple things like history lenght is really confusing for players unaccustomed to world gen stuff (not to mention natural savagery, civ and site numbers).
That seems like a reasonable enough candidate for an option for the simple screen.  I suppose it might be extended to other options once we've got more robust boats (many small islands, two continents, etc.).
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ag

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2065 on: May 12, 2012, 12:32:36 pm »

Making a dwarf push a cart all the way was said to give more control than just making it move on its own, so I presume it involves some kind of pathfinding. So, what does that pathfinding take into account about the track, and how would it interact with some advanced track constructs that involve e.g. making a cart 'jump' to the adjacent corner tile without explicit connection (which was for instance suggested as a way of joining tracks, and can also be applied to other simple direction-based routing)?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 12:36:27 pm by ag »
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Arkenstone

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2066 on: May 12, 2012, 05:56:28 pm »

Pathfinding will probably be just like the regular pathfinder but only considering areas reachable by track.  So I don't think it'll be able to do what you suggest.  Which will probably be a good thing, as it'll help keep dwarf-guided carts out of your automated systems.
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ag

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2067 on: May 13, 2012, 12:42:23 am »

Which will probably be a good thing, as it'll help keep dwarf-guided carts out of your automated systems.

Not quite, because it also means you can't make one-way, or proper double track for dwarf-guided carts; otherwise it can be done by adding cross-overs that switch carts going in the wrong direction to the other track here and there, sort of like: ZZZ (carts going on the lower line right to left, or on the top left to right get switched, while the other direction jumps corners and continues on). In the absense of native way to specify one-way track, a 'dead end' pointing directly into a corner could be an idiom for a one-way junction, and interpreted by pathfinding as such.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 12:57:22 am by ag »
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Elone

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2068 on: May 13, 2012, 03:12:47 am »

When multihauling with bins/barrels/bags, how will a dwarf decide what items are close enough, and what items are too far to justify getting them in that trip? Does a dwarf only bother with the items in his tile? Perhaps only his tile and adjacent tiles? Perhaps five, or twenty, or hundred? Is this an INI option? How is performance affected? If this affects performance notably enough, then an INI entry may be a good option (pun intended).

Have player-driven experiments on FPS drop causes, such as this thread given you clues for how to optimize the game? In tests, having item numbers beyond a certain point caused escalating lag, including that the currently game runs at 1/10 speed with 10k items in the fort, and 1/400 speed when there are 100k items. Also, dead creatures apparently cause FPS loss forever after they die, even if their bodies are butchered, as they cannot become ghosts, so their memory continues to linger.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 10:50:39 am by Elone »
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Calathar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2069 on: May 13, 2012, 05:26:11 am »

Are you looking at expanding the concept of the minecart "object" to other objects that might function similarly with regard to the physics and collision - like boulder traps Indiana Jones style?

For example, the development page lists:
- Stone traps should require the stone be placed above the tile that is targeted
- Stones should be able to roll (perhaps if they are started from or land on a ramp tile)

It seems like low-hanging fruit to get rid of/improve stone-fall traps with the minecart framework with the main difference being no storage allowed in the boulder "minecart".
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