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[Askot Bokbondeler]

stacking isnt a bug but an unimplemented feature
you can follow bugs status on the bugtracker, i think it's updated in realtime

[BradUffner]

As far as the stats things goes. I wrote a very quick little program to simulate it in different ways.  Here are my results for a 10x10 room, with a 25% chance to get a block, through 10000 tests:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

9 stones 1 time(s) = 0.01%
10 stones 2 time(s) = 0.02%
11 stones 5 time(s) = 0.05%
12 stones 3 time(s) = 0.03%
13 stones 9 time(s) = 0.09%
14 stones 27 time(s) = 0.27%
15 stones 38 time(s) = 0.38%
16 stones 89 time(s) = 0.89%
17 stones 156 time(s) = 1.56%
18 stones 252 time(s) = 2.52%
19 stones 347 time(s) = 3.47%
20 stones 539 time(s) = 5.39%
21 stones 623 time(s) = 6.23%
22 stones 751 time(s) = 7.51%
23 stones 795 time(s) = 7.95%
24 stones 973 time(s) = 9.73%
25 stones 957 time(s) = 9.57%
26 stones 870 time(s) = 8.7%
27 stones 826 time(s) = 8.26%
28 stones 677 time(s) = 6.77%
29 stones 574 time(s) = 5.74%
30 stones 419 time(s) = 4.19%
31 stones 337 time(s) = 3.37%
32 stones 265 time(s) = 2.65%
33 stones 180 time(s) = 1.8%
34 stones 111 time(s) = 1.11%
35 stones 59 time(s) = 0.59%
36 stones 49 time(s) = 0.49%
37 stones 28 time(s) = 0.28%
38 stones 19 time(s) = 0.19%
39 stones 7 time(s) = 0.07%
40 stones 9 time(s) = 0.09%
41 stones 1 time(s) = 0.01%
42 stones 2 time(s) = 0.02%

Even with 10,000,000 runs I never get 0 stones.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5 stones 1 time(s) = 1E-05%
6 stones 2 time(s) = 2E-05%
7 stones 10 time(s) = 0.0001%
8 stones 47 time(s) = 0.00047%
9 stones 208 time(s) = 0.00208%
10 stones 648 time(s) = 0.00648%
11 stones 1903 time(s) = 0.01903%
12 stones 5166 time(s) = 0.05166%
13 stones 12274 time(s) = 0.12274%
14 stones 26620 time(s) = 0.2662%
15 stones 52886 time(s) = 0.52886%
16 stones 96256 time(s) = 0.96256%
17 stones 162254 time(s) = 1.62254%
18 stones 253774 time(s) = 2.53774%
19 stones 369368 time(s) = 3.69368%
20 stones 500952 time(s) = 5.00952%
21 stones 636691 time(s) = 6.36691%
22 stones 760012 time(s) = 7.60012%
23 stones 859578 time(s) = 8.59578%
24 stones 914611 time(s) = 9.14611%
25 stones 918676 time(s) = 9.18676%
26 stones 879171 time(s) = 8.79171%
27 stones 797808 time(s) = 7.97808%
28 stones 689801 time(s) = 6.89801%
29 stones 568632 time(s) = 5.68632%
30 stones 448994 time(s) = 4.48994%
31 stones 338469 time(s) = 3.38469%
32 stones 245081 time(s) = 2.45081%
33 stones 170230 time(s) = 1.7023%
34 stones 113124 time(s) = 1.13124%
35 stones 72508 time(s) = 0.72508%
36 stones 44497 time(s) = 0.44497%
37 stones 26590 time(s) = 0.2659%
38 stones 15371 time(s) = 0.15371%
39 stones 8555 time(s) = 0.08555%
40 stones 4535 time(s) = 0.04535%
41 stones 2421 time(s) = 0.02421%
42 stones 1167 time(s) = 0.01167%
43 stones 571 time(s) = 0.00571%
44 stones 294 time(s) = 0.00294%
45 stones 146 time(s) = 0.00146%
46 stones 52 time(s) = 0.00052%
47 stones 28 time(s) = 0.00028%
48 stones 12 time(s) = 0.00012%
49 stones 2 time(s) = 2E-05%
50 stones 3 time(s) = 3E-05%
51 stones 1 time(s) = 1E-05%

If you want to mess with it yourself, download it here www.gumpstudio.com/MiningSimulator.zip.  It has no error checking at all, so any non numbers will crash it.  It requires .net framework 4.

*edit* my math was wrong. fixed up the % calculations

[Captain Crazy]

stacking isnt a bug but an unimplemented feature
you can follow bugs status on the bugtracker, i think it's updated in realtime

elaboration:a whole stack (bones, teeth, etc) makes only one craft (figure, crown, bracelet, etc)

must be one weird bracelet made out of 1000 giant whale bones

[Kyphis]

Why not add a boulder breaking labor to the Mining jobs, whereby boulders get broken into upto say 5 rocks?
Boulders can't be stacked in a pile, but rocks can be stacked, and transported in piles.
Change stonecraft jobs to use rocks, and Masonry jobs to use either single boulders or multiple stones.

This way stoncrafting is a bit more logical, and it is easier to clean up rocks around the fort. Gives miners something to do when no new rooms are being dug, as well. Boulders are big and hefty, so you wouldn't be able to carry more than one at a time, but stones can be arranged to fit more into a given space, so you could store and transport more at once.

It also means than if someone wants to craft an obsidian throne with iron back and gold arm rests, they can.

[dennislp3]

chains + prisoners/slaves + rocks that need broken... >.>

[micha]

Using rubble as a sort of anthill logistics problem where you have to dispose of all the mass you subtract isn't an ideal solution, but it's at least something.

finally a use for the cleaning skills. we've got rags and buckets already for the puke..  having to wait for someone to get a broom to sweep wouldn't be all that bad.  and having rubble slow you down wouldn't be bad either.  makes having a cave-in have a few consequences at least. oh yeah and you get cleaning exp.  the more you have the less lordly your hammerlords would appear. 

but no, lets not have rubble be something. in my mind the stuff is gone when you dump the bucket.   (and it would never enter the game should it require just one more pointer;  it could get dumped into the concrete mix pile, but who wants concrete? not me)


.. and with the chance for 'extra' blocks or bars,  please don't make them 'free' of the normal processing time.  if something takes x and i happen to get two of that sort, then puhlease, have it take 2x as long to process it.  no casino please!

[Quantumtroll]

This is only tangentially related to the current hauling changes, but:

Toady, what is your opinion of requiring water to brew beer, rum, ale, and similar booze?  Wine and other fermented fruit juices don't require water.

I can't find the quote, but he is for it. It's been specifically asked about, and he has answered that he is for it. However, like many questions of this nature, he has no timetable for it.

Excellent, thanks! 

[Sphalerite]

elaboration:a whole stack (bones, teeth, etc) makes only one craft (figure, crown, bracelet, etc)

No, it doesn't.  I've watched my bonecrafters make crafts.  One bone makes one craft.

Decorating with bones uses an entire stack, and artifacts demand entire stacks of bones, so that's kind of bugged there, but making discrete objects like bolts and crafts uses one bone at a time.

[NW_Kohaku]

stacking isnt a bug but an unimplemented feature
you can follow bugs status on the bugtracker, i think it's updated in realtime

elaboration:a whole stack (bones, teeth, etc) makes only one craft (figure, crown, bracelet, etc)

must be one weird bracelet made out of 1000 giant whale bones

No, it doesn't.  I've watched my bonecrafters make crafts.  One bone makes one craft.

Decorating with bones uses an entire stack, and artifacts demand entire stacks of bones, so that's kind of bugged there, but making discrete objects like bolts and crafts uses one bone at a time.

The "whole stack of bones used for one craft" bug was fixed in either 34.07 or 34.06, I forget which exactly, but that's not exactly the important point. 

Anyway, that's not what people mean by "stacking" usually, so it was likely to confuse people.  Stacking is when you can take, say, 50 individual plump helmets and put them all into the same tile to make plump helmet [50].  Currently, you can split stacks apart, but you cannot stack them back together. 

Combined with the fact that vectors lag the game when an overly large number of items are stored in them, (and a typical fortress can have ten thousand items easily, and that's before you count contaminants like evil cloud stuff,) and stacking is a way to keep FPS up while having more small item types, or have dwarves carry around more small items.

[SHOCKTrooperM37]

According to the Dev log on the main DF page, multiple blocks can be made per boulder.   That should make above ground constructions a lot easier because of the fact that block walls and floors construct faster than boulder walls/floors and provides lots of materials for the floors and roofs.   That will make my construction of my castles and mega towers much easier. 

[Mr S]

Circling back just ever so slightly to the RNG questions (while tapdancing around the drop rate statistical analysis dead horse), the kind of drop wierdness displayed in MMO's, and other types of simulations in general, has a great deal to do with ty KIND of RNG being used.  Sure, you're pocket calculator might just have a random number button on it.  But how good are those random numbers.  Just how random are they?

The reason you see those kind of cyclical drops and why certain times of day are better for certain things in those instances is because of both the type of random number generating function that is used behind the scenes as well as the seeds used for them.  If I use a standard system call for a random number (on a x86 chipset) and feed in the system clock time as the seed, there are only so many possibilities of the outcome.  If I control all of the other variables, such as other processes running, network noise, etc., it is entirely possible to predict an outcome.  That is because there are only so many discrete posibilities of "system clock" value that can be passed in as this seed.  Can it be used as an exploit?  Yes.  That's why for items of higher security encryption, the seed when generating the encryption key is important.

So, that leads to a question:  Toady, just how random is the RNG in DF?  How robust are the seeds?  Have you done, are you planning to do, would you consider outside auditing of the quality of the random numbers the RNG used in game produces?

[Footkerchief]

stacking isnt a bug but an unimplemented feature
you can follow bugs status on the bugtracker, i think it's updated in realtime

elaboration:a whole stack (bones, teeth, etc) makes only one craft (figure, crown, bracelet, etc)

must be one weird bracelet made out of 1000 giant whale bones

No, it doesn't.  I've watched my bonecrafters make crafts.  One bone makes one craft.

Decorating with bones uses an entire stack, and artifacts demand entire stacks of bones, so that's kind of bugged there, but making discrete objects like bolts and crafts uses one bone at a time.

The "whole stack of bones used for one craft" bug was fixed in either 34.07 or 34.06, I forget which exactly, but that's not exactly the important point. 

It was?  That hasn't come up on the tracker, although new information is always welcome.  The only related (and recently fixed) bug that I can think of is workshop clutter from huge stacks.

[Siquo]

So, that leads to a question:  Toady, just how random is the RNG in DF?  How robust are the seeds?  Have you done, are you planning to do, would you consider outside auditing of the quality of the random numbers the RNG used in game produces?

I'm guessing it's a pretty good Pseudo-RNG. In terrain generation it's very easy to notice periods that are too small.

[NW_Kohaku]

That's funny... I haven't exactly started a new fortress in 34.07 yet, but I recall reading of how bone stacks made to give you bone bolts now only take one bone from the stack and give you a stack of [5]. 

[jellsprout]

Circling back just ever so slightly to the RNG questions (while tapdancing around the drop rate statistical analysis dead horse), the kind of drop wierdness displayed in MMO's, and other types of simulations in general, has a great deal to do with ty KIND of RNG being used.  Sure, you're pocket calculator might just have a random number button on it.  But how good are those random numbers.  Just how random are they?

The reason you see those kind of cyclical drops and why certain times of day are better for certain things in those instances is because of both the type of random number generating function that is used behind the scenes as well as the seeds used for them.  If I use a standard system call for a random number (on a x86 chipset) and feed in the system clock time as the seed, there are only so many possibilities of the outcome.  If I control all of the other variables, such as other processes running, network noise, etc., it is entirely possible to predict an outcome.  That is because there are only so many discrete posibilities of "system clock" value that can be passed in as this seed.  Can it be used as an exploit?  Yes.  That's why for items of higher security encryption, the seed when generating the encryption key is important.

DF doesn't the level of security as encryption. Unless you are able to perform your actions with a millisecond precision, using the clock for the seed is pretty much indistinguishable from a true RNG. Remember, DF is a game. It doesn't need encryption or even Monte Carlo levels of unpredictability.