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[Dirst]

I think instead of simulating economics on a per-person basis for the whole world, it would make much more sense to simulate the macro economics that occurs between sites. Each site would supply and demand certain goods, which would set prices for merchants.

Toady's confirmed that if he does that it's not going to be implemented for a while. I think specifically he mentioned he's scared of it being as broken as the last economics and starving out all the world's sites.

He's also said that the time to bring it back would most likely be in conjunction with adding in taverns, since they kind of require some sort of economy to function (unless he's going to waste time setting up some kind of placeholder system). And going by this quote he doesn't seem to think possible starvation as that big of an issue, more than annoying perhaps that it might require some fudging to avoid it.

Yeah, it's going to be grossly destabilising when we add the actual economy to the game, but it should be entertaining. If we have to we'll just put strict controls on certain things ... not the same kind of strict controls that might stagnate the economy or whatever, but just actual magical strict controls that give things where there was once nothing. Hopefully we won't need to do that, and just make the overall situation like there's enough food being farmed ... we're going to have a slightly higher ratio than what they could get away with so that there hopefully won't be quite as many artificial problems and just real famines caused by the game saying there's a drought, or the game doing this, instead of just like 'well, the numbers didn't work out that year because some random crap happened'. Random's good too, but it's going to be really kind of horrifying.

We never have a timeframe for anything. There's just dependencies like when we get to the Dwarf Fortress end, and taverns we'll want to have an economy up for that probably, or some kind of payment system or something. Something to make the tavern make sense. In that sense, since we wanted to kind of, I mean, we're not sure exactly when we're going to work on that, but those are on kind of a similar time frame in any case.

Kumis, each Dwarf is endowed with a few bits of clothing when it's generated, and migrants sometimes show up with weapons and/or armor.  Everything else seems to be owned by the fort.  There are quite a few examples of outposts and colonies operating as commonwealths, so this gaming convenience isn't as contrived as it sounds.  This might change when The Economy™ is activated, and I would want to have better handle on what Toady plans before diving down the rabbit hole of utility functions.  However, you're more than welcome to bring your ideas over to the Suggestions forum if you want to get feedback now.  (By the way, the math behind an exchange economy can also be used to back out all of the dependencies of producing a particular bundle of final goods.)

King Mir, although it's certainly possible to create site-level supply and demand, it can lead to very broken outcomes if local prices and global prices get too out of whack.  These issues are swept under the rug in the current commonwealth setting, but kludging in site-level supply and demand now could make it difficult to do The Economy™ properly down the line.  A simple system (such as a multiplier based on distance to the closest friendly producer) might be okay, but I wouldn't want to see Toady waste time on a sophisticated site-level system then have to re-invent the wheel later.

Manveru, my take on the upcoming tavern for this release is something akin to a trade depot.  People with goods and/or news report there when they decide to come to your embark area.  You don't need coins for that.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Well, the Taverns for this release are more like generic buildings called (fake) taverns in name only and not much more. ANd they were adventure mode only in case you missed that. There's still a good chance the first true iteration of them will be based on bartering, nonetheless there's fairly strong indication Toady would want to do the economy along with it, either shortly before or after.

[Henny]

I should be mentioned that using currency on a regular basis within communities is a very recent development, and gift economies have been the prevailing norm for most of history, really. Even on the empire level, a common problem into the 18th century for rulers was the lack of solid currency, since most taxes were paid in natura. The "fort owns everything" contrievance is a surprisingly accurate simplification - personally I would see intra-fortress exchange as a pretty low priority.

[Manveru Taurënér]

I should be mentioned that using currency on a regular basis within communities is a very recent development, and gift economies have been the prevailing norm for most of history, really. Even on the empire level, a common problem into the 18th century for rulers was the lack of solid currency, since most taxes were paid in natura. The "fort owns everything" contrievance is a surprisingly accurate simplification - personally I would see intra-fortress exchange as a pretty low priority.

Well, the only recent part is relying solely on currency. Coinage etc have been around for thousands of years, and obviously have an important part to play. The key thing is balancing it all properly so that both methods have their own place in the system.

[Kumis]

Dirst, that's why I gave up. I hit a point where to develop the ideas any further I'd basically be ascribing how Toady should make the economy, and I definitely don't want to do that. For two reasons actually: 1. it's not my place to ascribe it, and 2. if I work out how I think the economy definitively ought to look then I'm merely setting myself up for disappointment and maybe even ruining my ability to enjoy the game once the economy's implemented. Essentially, I put my faith in the Toady.

As for all this talk of whether the economy should use fiat money, money pegged to (a) precious metal(s) or be a barter economy. In a game complete with titans, dwarfs, dragons and the like realism in replicating someone's idea of the middle ages is pretty low on the list IMHO. I say adopt any system which makes gameplay the most fun, the world the most immersive and stops the processor from grinding to an over-heated halt.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Dirst, that's why I gave up. I hit a point where to develop the ideas any further I'd basically be ascribing how Toady should make the economy, and I definitely don't want to do that. For two reasons actually: 1. it's not my place to ascribe it, and 2. if I work out how I think the economy definitively ought to look then I'm merely setting myself up for disappointment and maybe even ruining my ability to enjoy the game once the economy's implemented. Essentially, I put my faith in the Toady.

As for all this talk of whether the economy should use fiat money, money pegged to (a) precious metal(s) or be a barter economy. In a game complete with titans, dwarfs, dragons and the like realism in replicating someone's idea of the middle ages is pretty low on the list IMHO. I say adopt any system which makes gameplay the most fun, the world the most immersive and stops the processor from grinding to an over-heated halt.

Well, Toady said a few years ago he'd been reading up on economic history, so replicating it to some extent sure seems the goal. Although flavour and atmosphere is of course stated as more important.

I've been working through economic history books in preparation for the trade and site resource stuff, and there were these things that were innovative over time, these ideas; ideas like insurance, I don't know if our game should have insurance but it certainly existed before the 1400s if that's our cut-off.
Rainseeker:   Really?
Toady:   Yeah, all kinds of stuff. They were just as concerned as we are about losing their money, so they came up with all kinds of things, and it was really complicated. I don't know if we're going to go there or not, I don't want to pin myself to having systems like the Italians had near where our cut-off is, because we kind of decide based on the flavour and the atmosphere of the game as more important. But in a sense for the biggest cities to have that kind of feeling to them, at least in some cultures, of having some things like that going on instead of it all just being Conan-esque, is not really a problem for me so much. We'll see how it turns out, we certainly want a lot of those heroes running around doing things and not having to worry about if their sword is insured.

[MDFification]

Edit: Changed my question since it's been answered; Will we be able to mod other races to use deep sites, or as with current animal people will this result in the race in question not interacting with surface civs?

[Wimopy]

Sorry if this question has been asked before, but Do goblins have deep sites, and if so will we be vulnerable to sieges in the caverns?

Goblins do have sites like that now, with troll pens and everything, though not as deep as the caverns afaik.
Underground sieges still aren't in, so only aboveground for now. (With climbers and jumpers though)

[smjjames]

Edit: Changed my question since it's been answered; Will we be able to mod other races to use deep sites, or as with current animal people will this result in the race in question not interacting with surface civs?

If you mean deep sites only and seeing how that wotks, well, that is an experiment someone will have to try.

We should be able to set the civ to use whatever site type we want.

[Eric Blank]

Indeed we can, however I suspect deep down and with great sadness that the different sub-types of dwarf sites like hill dwarf settlements, mountain homes, and deep sites will all wind up rolled up into the same CAVE_DETAILED package.

[Wimopy]

Indeed we can, however I suspect deep down and with great sadness that the different sub-types of dwarf sites like hill dwarf settlements, mountain homes, and deep sites will all wind up rolled up into the same CAVE_DETAILED package.

Well, I really do think they are seperate tags, that seems somewhat more logical, at least to me. Then again, I can't say for certain. Maybe it would be worth an FotF question or simply waiting for the patch.

[smjjames]

handled broken mushroom cap ramps

Just out of curiosity, are these just ramps made with mushroom cap wood or are you talking about ramps on top of the mushroom caps?

[Manveru Taurënér]

handled broken mushroom cap ramps

Just out of curiosity, are these just ramps made with mushroom cap wood or are you talking about ramps on top of the mushroom caps?

I don't see how that could possibly refer to anything but the top of the actual mushroom caps

[smjjames]

handled broken mushroom cap ramps

Just out of curiosity, are these just ramps made with mushroom cap wood or are you talking about ramps on top of the mushroom caps?

I don't see how that could possibly refer to anything but the top of the actual mushroom caps

Maybe he omitted the word 'wood' by accident?

[Manveru Taurënér]

Even if so, I find it hard to believe (although with DF bugs I guess anything goes) that the mushroom cap wood material would somehow specifically bug out with ramps. Not to mention there would have to be ramps constructed out of it somewhere, and Toady noticing it. It just seems a thousand times more likely he is referring to the mushroom caps, which are pretty much guaranteed to include ramps.