Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 13

Author Topic: Online Piracy  (Read 27097 times)

Criptfeind

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2012, 12:27:45 am »

Frumple is both faster then me, and smarter to boot.
Logged

Reudh

  • Bay Watcher
  • Perge scelus mihi diem perficias.
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #106 on: February 04, 2012, 12:29:25 am »

I remember what Notch said about the piracy of Minecraft.

If one person pirates a copy of Minecraft, and five people see it and buy it as a result, then is that not a good investment? A profit of four sales where there may not have been any?

Of course, since Mojang got established, he has now changed his stance. :3

SalmonGod

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nyarrr
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #107 on: February 04, 2012, 12:41:00 am »

I have some facts to contribute.
Problem: All ancedotal and not statistically significant :( Important, yes, but the individual scale impact of piracy is fairly minor; again, on the small scale it's not significantly more immoral or damaging than sharing a book or movie. If there's trouble, it's going to be on a much larger scale.

I am aware and knew it was going to be pointed out.  I'm glad you still admit that they are important, though, because it is individual scale piracy by people like me that has been most directly targeted by all of this legal warfare over the issue since the day Napster was taken to court.  Studying broader statistics is important, but being able to tell somebody like me that what I do deserves to be legal or illegal, why, and how is equally important.
Logged
In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

darklord92

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CREATURE:SERGALNORTH]
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #108 on: February 04, 2012, 12:45:11 am »

Lots of Indie games are terrible and fail. AAA games, by definition, do not. I would certainly say more indie games suck and die then AAA games.

wait a second than why are you saying indie games fail, if your on a indie game forum o.o;
Logged
Form walking potato man out of corpse. Absorb anyone else in the house.
We have a successful derail.
The Vilous Mod - Jingle berries!

Max White

  • Bay Watcher
  • Still not hollowed!
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #109 on: February 04, 2012, 12:47:04 am »

I think the point was that although the indie games that become well known do so because they are outstanding, such as Dwarf Fortress and other popular indie games, the vast, vast majority of them you wont hear about because they are pure crap, so nobody gives a damn and they don't get talked about.
This is opposed to AAA games, that can be pure crap, but well advertised, tricking you into buying them expecting better.

Criptfeind

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #110 on: February 04, 2012, 12:49:02 am »

Lots of Indie games are terrible and fail. AAA games, by definition, do not. I would certainly say more indie games suck and die then AAA games.

wait a second than why are you saying indie games fail, if your on a indie game forum o.o;
Is that a real question, or more of a joke hah hah question?

I think the point was that although the indie games that become well known do so because they are outstanding, such as Dwarf Fortress and other popular indie games, the vast, vast majority of them you wont hear about because they are pure crap, so nobody gives a damn and they don't get talked about.
This is opposed to AAA games, that can be pure crap, but well advertised, tricking you into buying them expecting better.

Not to mention if a game from a AAA studio is crap you will hear about it.
Logged

LordBucket

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #111 on: February 04, 2012, 01:13:58 am »

Why is a corporation that distributes
the creative work of a third party entitled to prevent others from recreating and distributing those materials themselves?
Because the corporation has negotiated with said third party for either exclusive or semi-exclusive
right to control of distribution (instead of simply distribution)... ideally, anyway.

Why is the creator of a work entitled to control or grant control of distribution? More specifically, what about the act of creation entitles an individual to compel others through threats and force to refrain from recreating that work?

Quote
The non-ideal aspects meander off into (currently utterly bullshit) copyright law, copyright theory, draconian contracts, and a cultural system that's been somewhat heavily structured by those very companies demanding control over distribution as part of their services... among who knows what else.

Exactly. I dispute the validity of the initial premise: copyright.

The mere fact of me having been the "first" to introduce an idea, or a work to this world does not entitle me to prevent others from introducing those same ideas or variations on them. Neither the technological means they use to create or adapt that work, nor the precision or medium of the  recreation change this.

If I compose an original melody, and hum it in a public place where you overhear it, is it "wrong" for you to listen to it and start humming it yourself? Is it "wrong" if you hum it around your friends so that they hear it too? Am I, as the original composer, entitled to fine or imprison you for doing these things?

I think everyone here would say no, it isn't wrong, and that fines and imprisonment are not an appropriate response.

If instead of merely humming it, I compose a musical piece based on that melody, then use instruments to play it in public...and then you, having heard that performance, go home and recreate that piece at home for yourself and your family using your own instruments, does that make it wrong? Am I now entitled to fine or imprison you for doing this?

If I produce that music in a recording studio, and have it played on the radio...and you in the privacy of your own home record a copy of that music so that you and those around you can listen to it whenever you like, is it wrong yet? May I fine and imprison you for this?

If I burn that music to CD on my home computer, and show up at a swap meet to sell those CDs, and you give me money in exchange for a CD that I have made...and then you go home and play that CD for yourself and others....is that wrong? What if you play that CD for others who did not give me money? Does that make it wrong? Am I entitled to fine you and imprison you? If instead of playing it for them you make a copy of the CD and give it to a friend, does that make it wrong? Does that entitle me to fine and imprison you?

If instead of burning it myself at home I contract with a third party to manufacturer CDs with that music in quantity, and I make a deal that they sell those CDs and give me a portion of the proceeds...and you then purchase a CD from that third party, make a copy and give it to a friend...is it wrong yet? May I fine and imprison you?

If instead of giving your friend a physical copy you give him an electronic copy, may I fine and imprison you? If instead of giving a copy to a friend you give it to a complete stranger may I fine and imprison you? If instead of giving an electronic copy to one stranger you give it to many strangers may I fine and imprison you?

At what point does it become "wrong?" At what point am I as the original creator of a work, or others I have contracted with, entitled to demand money from you and throw you in jail for reproducing my work?

Why?

Reudh

  • Bay Watcher
  • Perge scelus mihi diem perficias.
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #112 on: February 04, 2012, 01:26:17 am »

If I have purchased a book of recipes, and then share said recipes with a friend, have I caused piracy of a recipe?

If I play some music in public, am I sharing copyrighted material? I am. Am I not causing others to inadvertently pirate it by recording a copy within their memory? They haven't stolen it from me, they merely make a copy of it in their minds. That's the definition of piracy of IP, copying an idea to a new person.

If a person records a copy of the music I play in public, is that considered a new work, given the sound is different due to say... background interference? Under the SOPA/PIPA/ACTA, that would not be considered a new work. That would be considered theft.

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #113 on: February 04, 2012, 01:36:27 am »

Oh no... The previous two posts made me realize something: Copyright law could one day be so draconian that memorizing songs in your own mind is considered piracy akin to P2P sharing.

It's really not that far of a leap logically.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Reudh

  • Bay Watcher
  • Perge scelus mihi diem perficias.
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #114 on: February 04, 2012, 01:40:25 am »

THOUGHT POLICE! :D

darklord92

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CREATURE:SERGALNORTH]
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2012, 01:47:26 am »

Lots of Indie games are terrible and fail. AAA games, by definition, do not. I would certainly say more indie games suck and die then AAA games.

wait a second than why are you saying indie games fail, if your on a indie game forum o.o;
Is that a real question, or more of a joke hah hah question?
Just a jokeing hahah question, it just struck me now that df is an indie game XD
Logged
Form walking potato man out of corpse. Absorb anyone else in the house.
We have a successful derail.
The Vilous Mod - Jingle berries!

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #116 on: February 04, 2012, 02:02:40 am »

General copyright thread.
Thread specifically dealing with copyright infringement.


The arguments are within those~

Why is the creator of a work entitled to control or grant control of distribution? More specifically, what about the act of creation entitles an individual to compel others through threats and force to refrain from recreating that work?
Nothing, really, but it was miraculously discovered that giving the creator of a particular creative work some degree of control over its distribution incentivized the creation of more creative works, a thing considered to be a net plus.

Sane copyright is both a good thing and societally beneficial, fairly well proven to give more than it takes. The current system is way damn far from sane, but that doesn't invalidate the concept on the whole. It's a good idea and has been, at times, fairly well implemented.

The mere fact of me having been the "first" to introduce an idea, or a work to this world does not entitle me to prevent others from introducing those same ideas or variations on them. Neither the technological means they use to create or adapt that work, nor the precision or medium of the  recreation change this.
Nothing really entitles you to not be violently accosted and stolen from, either, but society kinda' figured things work a bit more smoothly when that sort of act isn't generally allowed. We're working on sussing out where exactly that point lies re: information.

As the general moral point, it's been fairly well agreed that when folks are profiting off of someone else's creative works without consultation and fair compensation to the mentioned creator (assuming they're alive and haven't ceded the work to public or free use), that the distributor is definitely doing something immoral. If nothing else it's really damn impolite and something society should probably frown upon (Tip: Punitive laws are one of the ways society frowns on things, in an ideal situation).  Things get more complicated when there's no profit (read: Money beyond, say, CD purchase for burning and shipping) involved. But all that's been covered elsewhere! And we're trying to deal more strongly with piracy than copyright in this thread, I believe.

Why?
Those linked threads! In them is your answer! Or at least numerous and varying explanations.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 02:06:44 am by Frumple »
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Deadmeat1471

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #117 on: February 04, 2012, 07:34:21 am »

Lots of Indie games are terrible and fail. AAA games, by definition, do not. I would certainly say more indie games suck and die then AAA games.

Quote
I completely disagree with this.  I dislike the majority of AAA titles these days.  The indie scene seems to be outdoing them.  I think there's more innovation there, due to less executive meddling forcing developers to create only content that they consider to be a safe market investment.


I think some people are under the illusion that a massive budget, massive hype, massive production cost always or even often equates to a good game.
It doesn't.

A good game can't be bought with hard cash and next generation graphics. A good game comes through solid long term thinking, unique ideas and consumer input. None of which AAA titles take into account.

The AAA market is largely for casual gamers who pick up a game and drop it in a week. Gone are the days of X-Com, gaming is 'popular' now, I played games when it wasn't  8) Cool 8) to do so  :P
Indies have a far longer life.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 07:39:28 am by Deadmeat1471 »
Logged

Criptfeind

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #118 on: February 04, 2012, 11:22:43 am »

At what point does it become "wrong?"
If instead of giving an electronic copy to one stranger you give it to many strangers

The order of magnitude. Actually, giving to one stranger is sorta wrong, but not really wrong enough to worry about.

And no, imprisonment? That's not a reasonable punishment almost ever. Fines are basically not a reasonable punishment most of the time. Just because the current system is broken and immoral does not make any system broken and immoral.
Logged

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: Online Piracy
« Reply #119 on: February 04, 2012, 02:40:02 pm »

How about downloading a copy vs borrowing a copy from a friend?
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 13