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[GavJ]

So... dwarf fortress is awesome, obviously.

And... dwarf fortress is incredibly opaque to the uninitiated. The seemingly terrible graphics (I don't care what tileset you use, they look terrible to anybody who is used to modern games), the intimidating interface, the fact that most of the great things about the game are somewhat intangible and not immediately apparent. It makes it hard to recruit friends into learning and playing the game.

I think a lot of people WOULD really enjoy the game, though, if they took the plunge. And our community would be the better for it.

So, idea: Come up with a concentrated informative PDF that would be easy to distribute and that, in 1 or maybe 2 pages, would make the absolute best possible case for why you should try to learn dwarf fortress.





What I have in mind is something that has "tiers" to it. It starts out with a very brief and concise description of the game, then a little bit more info, then a little bit more, and then eventually links to much more extensive resources that won't visually overwhelm but that will allow people who are still interested up to that point to seek out the highest quality additional resources and information.

Basically, draw people in gradually, requiring minimal effort to read and enjoy the first parts, which makes you intrigued enough to invest reading additional detail, and so on.

(Note: part of the whole "community project" bit in the title is that I may be wrong about this approach, or any of the content. Crowd wisdom is likely to achieve the best results, so I seek your critiques):

1) Dwarf fortress in a sentence or two. For example, the "DF in 50 words" in my signature, which I'll copy paste here in case I change it later:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bones.

2) Dwarf fortress in 2-3 paragraphs. Less oriented toward making people intrigued and chuckling, and more oriented toward actually going over the key features and nature of the game (that it's a sandbox, that it has a couple different play modes, that is simulates everything in insane detail, etc.)

3) A short list of some of the most awesome and diverse things that have been achieved in the game, to show its flexibility and power. For example, "draining whole oceans to capture a breeding pair of seamonsters for a submarine meat industry just because the dwarves got bored of mutton" or "making operational computers the size of mountains out of small water chambers, stone gears, and Archimedes screws" or... I dunno. Other stuff.

4) Possibly? Addressing people's fears about the two major roadblocks to the game: graphics and interface. Don't want to be too apologetic in tone, more like pointing out the positive sides and downplaying how bad either really is. For example, abstract graphics allow one's imagination to actually run more freely, much like reading a novel for the imaginative person can create more vivid and epic scenes than any Peter Jackson movie can. Also, making clear the flexibility in tilesets and utilities and moddability to smooth out whatever you happen to dislike personally.

5) Links and teasers to some of the best additional resources to learn more from there. Like the best fan artwork and short comics (good to have up front because they take less of an investment than long stories), then also longer stories (like Boatmurdered), and for those who are convinced and want to give it a try, all of the most convenient resources to help them do so like the highest quality newbie tutorials, mod packs, wiki links, descriptions of how and when they might want to use each resource.

(PDF I suggested originally because it can be emailed around on its own, doesn't require hosting, and it allows pictures and LINKS, anybody can open one)

[sal880612m]

I maintain that probably the best way to get someone interested in dwarf fortress would be to point them towards the boards and tell them to check some of the community games and other threads out. Even if they don't get into the game chances are they will either get an idea of what the game is like or just get a chuckle out of the off-beat and hilarious stuff that can and does happen both in the game and on the forum. Sometimes I consider telling people to check out these forums just to look at some of the signatures. I figure if a person hangs out on the forum even if it is just to read stuff eventually and without being pushed to do so they will try the game.

Edit: It also probably helps if a person enjoys to learn, because even though I can start with nothing and become sustainable there is still an insane amount of things I still need to improve on and/or learn.

[Fen]

The most success I've ever had getting someone interested in Dwarf Fortress is telling them about the stories the community has created; I'll use a variety of examples, ranging from the awe-inspiring Cacame Awemedinade to the soul-scrunching Mermaid Bone Farm. I'll throw in a few of my own from time to time as well.

[PrimusRibbus]

The only thing I've ever needed to get people into DF is a link to Boatmurdered, a link to LNP, and a link to the wiki.

The main reason why people I know have been reluctant to try DF is that they believed the Reddit myth that DF has an impossibly steep learning curve. DF does not have a steep learning curve, it's just poorly documented and has an obtuse UI; explaining that and linking to the wiki fixes that objection.

[GavJ]

You all are citing individual snippets of things that I already wanted to include... Do you have any reason to believe that the small amount of extra info (mostly other stuff that you guys are suggesting) and links would actually be COUNTER-productive?

The point of the project is not that this is supposed to be necessary to recruit any person. The point of it is to go from maybe what I've experienced as a 60% success at recruiting people who would actually enjoy DF by using something like boatmurdered alone up to 90-95% success with a strategically well-thought out surgical strike of information.

[SmittySmitha]

Dwarf fortress is significantly more popular than you would think, and there really isn't a need for this since there is already a wiki with great tutorials and explanations. I really do not believe this is a game that would benefit much from an increase in popularity since it is already pretty popular.

[GavJ]

Dwarf fortress is significantly more popular than you would think, and there really isn't a need for this since there is already a wiki with great tutorials and explanations. I really do not believe this is a game that would benefit much from an increase in popularity since it is already pretty popular.

1) Where are there figures on the game's popularity? Those sound interesting
2) To some extent, I don't care as much how popular it is amongst strangers. It would be mroe fun for me (and presumably most people) if specifically my/their friends played as well, such that there are more people to talk about it with/brag to/scheme with/collaborate on stories and stuff with/etc. Due to limited number of friends who are good candidates and previous poor success rates at getting people to try versus other games, this idea.

Or is it just me and everybody else has a 100% success rate recruiting specific friends?

[sal880612m]

My concern here is that trying to lead into it as per your suggestion will either make people falsely set their expectations. There is such a thing as over-hyping the game and if you flaunt all of it's good features which seems to be roughly what you are suggesting the hurdle of dealing with the graphics becomes a deal breaker. It's like people hear about this awesome game with this incredible flexibility and depth and start to think it's gotta have a flaw and sure enough it does, so the more time you spend building up the game the bigger people expect it's flaws to be.

abstract graphics allow one's imagination to actually run more freely

This statement really limits the group that can be targeted, whereas humor is pretty universal even if the DF brand isn't. If people who played games were dominated by people who cared about a game allowing their imagination to run more freely games like Call of Duty probably wouldn't be some of the biggest games on the market. It seems ridiculous to me to push this as something positive when there are probably just as many or more people who see it as a flaw. Games are more enjoyable if they are entertaining and needing to interpret graphics and events obviously is either not as entertaining to some or just more work than some are willing to do. How many people do you know that totally and absolutely and truthfully love and appreciate abstract art versus people who can appreciate even an amateur's landscape.

In short far too much is subjective and depends on who you are trying to get into the game for there to actually be a better standard alternative to just pointing the to the forums and community games.

 

[GavJ]

This statement really limits the group that can be targeted, whereas humor is pretty universal even if the DF brand isn't. If people who played games were dominated by people who cared about a game allowing their imagination to run more freely games like Call of Duty probably wouldn't be some of the biggest games on the market. It seems ridiculous to me to push this as something positive when there are probably just as many or more people who see it as a flaw. Games are more enjoyable if they are entertaining and needing to interpret graphics and events obviously is either not as entertaining to some or just more work than some are willing to do. How many people do you know that totally and absolutely and truthfully love and appreciate abstract art versus people who can appreciate even an amateur's landscape.

The STATEMENT doesn't limit the group. The GAME limits the group.
If you don't enjoy imagining things, you're almost certainly never going to like dwarf fortress, regardless of tilesets blah blah (those are a trivial amount of variance around the core truth of needing to imagine almost everything).

So yes, even if 80% of people might see it as a flaw, I'm not sure why that matters much, because those 80% are people that wouldn't have gotten into dwarf fortress seriously no matter what methods I used to pitch it to them. They're already not the audience. Even if I don't know exactly who is who ahead of time, the audience is people who are the sort of person who might enjoy the game seriously long term, and so it's more efficient to simply market directly to those people's preferences, one of which pretty much must be enjoyment of imagining things.




It's sort of like saying "You shouldn't market how springy your bread dough is, because people who are allergic to gluten are gonna hate that." Well no... people who are allergic to gluten aren't going to be considering my dough REGARDLESS of whether it's sort of springy or very springy, so I don't care. I'm by necessity only marketing to gluten tolerant people, and that audience probably appreciated a nice springy dough.

All I'm trying to do is more efficiently reveal the benefits of the game to the population of people who already would see those as benefits. The graphics, I honest to God believe are a huge plus in this game. But if you told me that a month before I first played, I wouldn't have understood without a bit of explanation, because of simply being conditioned all my life to want good graphics in games just out of... i dunno, inertia.

[sal880612m]

Imagination is not required to play or enjoy the game, just to get the most out of it. As with any game a person can enjoy aspects of it without getting involved in other aspects of it. If you only target those that want to imagine you are cutting out potential candidates because you don't think they could appreciate the game without it.

<light-hearted sarcasm>It isn't like people ever change, or get into things they weren't into before or anything like that.</sarcasm>
YOU have decided they wouldn't like it and there is a decent chance they won't, but if you focus on how important imagination is you aren't really pitching the game to anyone who might come to appreciate it in the future.

[GavJ]

*Shrug* seems generally like a characteristic that's there or not by the time you're an adult. I can't say I know any adults who suddenly started loving reading books out of nowhere.

Nor can I think of anybody who would enjoy this game at all who was not seriously into imagining scenes in detail. Even though it's technically possible to play it without doing that, if you are that sort of person, there are infinitely better games for you no matter how you're doing it. Sandbox building that you want to take fairly literally? Minecraft. Hack and slash frustration outlet? Call of Duty. Adventure story without imagining everything? Skyrim, etc.  And what's more, anybody playing this game has almost certainly heard of and probably played all those games. So why would they ever switch to something that is in every way a worse experience for their non-imaginative playstyle?

Who is this hypothetical person who dislikes imagining things, already has better known games available to them that serve their preferences of not having to imagine scenes, and yet switches to DF anyway?  Have you ever actually met one of these people? If so, how often? If not (or if very rarely), why is it a good idea to undermine the effectiveness of a general sales pitch for 90-100% of people, only for the sake of 0-10% of the people who might hear it?

[sal880612m]

People have basically been over this with you before but hings tend to be subjective, each of the games you listed may have their place but that doesn't mean they are the only option in that are or even necessarily the best option. Just because someone enjoys Minecraft doesn't mean they can't also appreciate Dwarf Fortress. I haven't played a Call of Duty-type game in a long while, but on the whole I would say in terms of a hack and slash frustration outlet the only way in which DF is not superior is graphics, and honestly the level of detail more than makes up for that.

If you don't look for something you most likely aren't going to find it. While that may not apply exactly if you decide beforehand and without pitching the game to people you don't think will like it to raise your success rate of pitching the game you might get a higher success rate but you will still lose potential converts. A low success rate can be viewed one of two ways, I failed to convert a bunch of people or I tried to convert a bunch of people. I am kind of curious as to why you feel a high success rates matters. It doesn't matter if you pitch the game to 1 select person or 20 people if you only manage to get one person into the game.

Who said/decided that all or even most DF players are adults, or that we should limit who we try to get into the game to adults. Older teens are just a viable and though I personally wouldn't try to get someone younger into the game doesn't mean someone couldn't.

You want to create a pitch that might raise the success of converts in a targeted group while risking alienating anyone outside that group. As far as I know that only works out well if you have a large target audience which you don't and have as much as admitted.

I never said imagination doesn't enhance or add to the game only that it isn't the be all and end all you seem to envision it to be and feel that it should be pushed as. There are people with no imagination who will probably never enjoy DF but it isn't as if everyone who plays looks at the screen and sees a dwarf fight a goblin and imagines the battle blow for blow every single time it happens.

Anyway I am done arguing/discussing with you, we both believe we are right and I have seen you in multiple threads of a similar nature and the one thing that keeps happening is you stick to your view. You can use your vast imagination and argue my side for me from now on.

[GavJ]

Who said/decided that all or even most DF players are adults, or that we should limit who we try to get into the game to adults. Older teens are just a viable and though I personally wouldn't try to get someone younger into the game doesn't mean someone couldn't.

I think you're still misunderstanding (or I'm miscommunicating) the fundamental nature of this project I'm proposing. None of this really matters or is even something I care to or do dispute.

I want to more effectively recruit friends of mine, and possibly (thus why it says "or" community project) help others similar to me and share the burden of brainstorming with such fellow players.

This is not an abstract manifesto about who does or should play DF and why.




I don't really care at the end of the day if teenagers play or people who don't like imagining things play or whatever. Sure, they do. okay. I don't have any teenage friends or friends who don't like imagining things like reading novels. And I'm sure that there's a bunch of other people reading this who don't either, based on my basic experience interacting with people on the forum. Enough so that I'm pretty sure it's worth posting in general discussion due to the number of people that are probably like me who would benefit from a collaborative effort of this sort.

People with lots of teenage friends they want to recruit... just don't use this recruitment aid?