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[Goron]

Great... now I need to go move exult to my laptop when I get home... and then play all night long.
Thanks Sergius, your post just stole hours of my life

Serpent Isle, here I come!

[LemonMan]

Depends strongly on what you consider depth. I feel that Morrowind is shallow, but "broad", not deep. Lots of things to explore, but not many ways you can be creative.

I actually consider Worms an in-depth game, because there's a huge range of tactics you can use, and there's plenty of complex ways you can use to achieve victory.

Any MMO strategy game can also have an amazing amount of depth, if you play with a good alliance.

If you mean something that has limitless exploration, try Fallout 3. Or some RPI MUDs, especially Armageddon. Arm's world is built mostly by player actions, and there's a massive world to explore.

good post.

'depth' seems to have a different meaning to everyone. When I read he thought morrowind had depth I realized I wasn't going to be able to contribute much to his search, since I feel Morrowwind is pretty darn shallow like you indicate.

But now it seems to me, depth in his mind is time you can spend playing while actually progressing. I base this on:
"Morrowind lasts for freaking ever" and "how much there is to accomplish in the game". Although, I feel both those statements have different potentials behind them as well. For example, I could play and beat Morrowind in a couple of hours easily, but I don't have to; I could explore its full world and spend much more time.
So in the end, I think LemonMan should be content with nearly any game that does not have a straightforward story/progress track- regardless of 'depth'.

As such, I'll throw in my own suggestion: Daggerfall

Hey, I like this post. I think you guys figured it out.
I guess that I used the term depth wrong, or in a way I didn't mean. But yeah, I guess I am looking for games that let me play and play and play without repeating actions and actually coming out with a more advanced character/fortress/whatever.

I tried playing daggerfall on my PC but couldn't get it working. I grabbed the installer off of fileshack or something then installed DOSbox. After figuring out how to type a "\" I unpacked/installed it but then when I tried to run it it gave me some sort of error. Grrrrrr.

[Goron]

I can't help much with your Daggerfall troubles, I don't have access to the pertinent documentation/webpages at the moment, but I can make a new suggestion.
This will be hit or miss...

...how about the Sims?
While it lacks the action of combat and/or exploration and such as is present in DF and Morrowind, it has a lot of nice features those games lack, too. I personally love the Sims games (1, 2, and 3... and all the expansions) for the same reasons you seem to like the above mentioned games, but I understand it is not everyone's cup o' tea.

[LemonMan]

I can't help much with your Daggerfall troubles, I don't have access to the pertinent documentation/webpages at the moment, but I can make a new suggestion.
This will be hit or miss...

...how about the Sims?
While it lacks the action of combat and/or exploration and such as is present in DF and Morrowind, it has a lot of nice features those games lack, too. I personally love the Sims games (1, 2, and 3... and all the expansions) for the same reasons you seem to like the above mentioned games, but I understand it is not everyone's cup o' tea.

Yeah, I actually loved the sims, recently I played through the sims 3. My one problem with that game is that once I went through it once, I had pretty much done everything. It lost all of it's magicalness once was making a bagillion dollars a day and growing old and ugly. Dwarf fortress, however, I can play forever. And when I start a new fortress it gives me the option to go a completely different route. The sims only allows me to really create a house and choose a career path. It's the same thing over and over again. Although I did REALLY enjoy the first play through.

I guess I don't want to be whiney about my games, but I do like discussing these ideas of "depth" verses length/options. Or something.

[Goron]

Yeah, I actually loved the sims, recently I played through the sims 3. My one problem with that game is that once I went through it once, I had pretty much done everything. It lost all of it's magicalness once was making a bagillion dollars a day and growing old and ugly. Dwarf fortress, however, I can play forever. And when I start a new fortress it gives me the option to go a completely different route. The sims only allows me to really create a house and choose a career path. It's the same thing over and over again. Although I did REALLY enjoy the first play through.

I guess I don't want to be whiney about my games, but I do like discussing these ideas of "depth" verses length/options. Or something.

Interesting... As I said, I figured the suggestion would be hit or miss
But, I will push it a bit more, not for the sake of argument but to see if maybe I cant expand your playstyle a bit: Have you considered taking a less 'make a bagillion dollars a day and grow old and ugly' approach to the Sims? For example, rather than just trying to be the best at your job, make your person really lazy. Or want a huge family. Or breed animals. Or build stuff. etc.
I could just try and make my DF fort the most powerful and best every time I play... after the first couple I'd get kinda bored. Thus, I start taking different paths and making different things, like I am on a big human settlement kick, right now.
You can do the same in the Sims, play differently each time. it seems to me that you are making the same character each time you play (a hard working, micromanaged, successful individual).
Of course, its possible you have done all this but still reached the same conclusion... but... in the case you have not, try it:-) Build a sims megaproject:-)

Otherwise, let me try another suggestion:
Tycoon games. I tend to get a similar joy out of tycoon games as I do out of DF. Railroad Tycoon, Rollercoaster Tycoon, Transport Tycoon, Simutrans, to list a few. What are your thoughts on those types of games? I think they fit the bill of 'play forever, continually improving/modifying/trying new things' pretty well.

[LemonMan]

Interesting... As I said, I figured the suggestion would be hit or miss
But, I will push it a bit more, not for the sake of argument but to see if maybe I cant expand your playstyle a bit: Have you considered taking a less 'make a bagillion dollars a day and grow old and ugly' approach to the Sims? For example, rather than just trying to be the best at your job, make your person really lazy. Or want a huge family. Or breed animals. Or build stuff. etc.
I could just try and make my DF fort the most powerful and best every time I play... after the first couple I'd get kinda bored. Thus, I start taking different paths and making different things, like I am on a big human settlement kick, right now.
You can do the same in the Sims, play differently each time. it seems to me that you are making the same character each time you play (a hard working, micromanaged, successful individual).
Of course, its possible you have done all this but still reached the same conclusion... but... in the case you have not, try it:-) Build a sims megaproject:-)

Otherwise, let me try another suggestion:
Tycoon games. I tend to get a similar joy out of tycoon games as I do out of DF. Railroad Tycoon, Rollercoaster Tycoon, Transport Tycoon, Simutrans, to list a few. What are your thoughts on those types of games? I think they fit the bill of 'play forever, continually improving/modifying/trying new things' pretty well.

Oh, I love Tycoon games. I played Rollercoaster Tycoon 2 for a long time awhile ago. I find it very difficult to start a game up again though for some reason.

That is true also, with the whole micromanaged sim thing. I micromanage EVERYTHING in games, at least I try to as much as possible. It would probably be a good experience to try a less perfectionist approach to things. Makes for a better story in the end I would think.

For some reason, the games I like are either extremely simple, or otherwise, this other stuff. It's kind of strange, I don't see a happy medium in between, I think it mostly just fits my idea of what mood I am, how much time I have, etc.
Games like Osmos, cortex command, Soldat, very small games that take less action from me. Maybe I'll start another thread to discuss these simple games. I just love to zone out on a "mouse-only" input game once in a while.

[Goron]

I micromanage EVERYTHING in games, at least I try to as much as possible. It would probably be a good experience to try a less perfectionist approach to things. Makes for a better story in the end I would think.

Holy smokes I'm talking to myself!
I micromanage like crazy as well. It is very hard for me to 'let go' and 'go with the flow'. I am always on the pause key, cuz I just can't let a second go by that is not completely under my control. Quicksave too, cuz god forbid one of my mercenaries dies!
But... I am really trying to change that... Thats why I pushed the Sims a bit harder even after you indicated replays didn't do it for you. Cuz if you try to loosen up and micromanage less, the game changes completely (same goes for DF, or most any other game involving multiple independent parts under your control). For example, when you are busy giving orders to Sim Dad, don't have the game paused... let Sim Kid and Sim Wife go do whatever... and then, when you finish with Dad and look over at them, build off what they are doing, not what you would have done with them.

This is why I have stopped naming my Dwarfs in DF. To avoid attachment so I can let them die. No save-scumming for me (anymore). My recent play of 7.62 High Calibre was brutal on me... I fought soooo hard to not load after a merc was killed, but rather just keep playing and deal with the loss.
(I know letting people die is not necessarily a micromanagement issue, but I find it to be related, somehow).

Have you played Clonk Rage? I feel like it fits in with cortex command and soldat (I've never heard of Osmos).

[SpiredWarrior]

You can drag and drop all kinds of things and make some sort of Fortress made completely out of crates and barrels. And you can bake bread.

With blood.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

I tried playing daggerfall on my PC but couldn't get it working. I grabbed the installer off of fileshack or something then installed DOSbox. After figuring out how to type a "\" I unpacked/installed it but then when I tried to run it it gave me some sort of error. Grrrrrr.

Try the official elder scrolls page, they released it free a while back, and included a short guide on how to get it up and running on dosbox.