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Author Topic: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.  (Read 12452 times)

LegacyCWAL

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2008, 05:18:10 pm »

I don't have any pictures or anything and several things I was going to mention have already been said (like having your "stuff" stockpile right under the trade depot).  Also, my fortresses tend to be paragons of what not to do efficiency-wise.  But there's a few little things I think might be good to mention, so what the hell, here goes ;D


*Putting stockpiles near the workshops is good, but a little thing I've found helps is to put the really really nice stuff right next to the associated workshops.  And I mean literally adjacent.  GCS silk cloth directly touching the Clothier's shop.  Steel and Platinum bars directly touching the forges.  Platinum ore directly touching the Craftdwarf shops.  Why?  For Strange Moods.  Moody dwarves tend to go after the closest thing they can get their hands on, so you want that to be the good stuff.  If somebody wants to make an artifact earring, I want it made out of Native Aluminum, not Chert, dammit.


*Use firing squads, not a magma/water/chasm death chamber.  While this isn't a more efficient layout, it's more efficient at leveling up your Marksdwarves.  That's because this way, your Marksdwarves get double the XP out of each goblin: one batch for killing them with impunity from the other side of a ditch, and another batch from taking their bones to the practice range.  This in turn means less workshop jobs needed to train them up, less hauling per unit of XP, etc.


*Secure outdoor resource areas with channels (and perhaps walls), then make back doors to them.  A good way to keep your lumberdwarves and wood haulers safe is to make sure the only way to get to your forested lumber-farm involves going through your fortress, and thus through your corridor of doom.  The most obvious result is that it lets you collect lumber and herbs without turning it into a full-blown military excursion.  However, this has the added advantage of letting you make the door to the harvesting area as wide as you like, rather than having to send everybody through a 3-wide chokepoint.

Since this idea is often misread, I'll illustrate:
Code: [Select]
ccccccccccccc
c           c
c           c
c  TREES (door) == Fort == Corridor o' Doom
c           c
c           c
ccccccccccccc

c = channel/cliff/moat/etc.
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CrazyEyes

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2008, 10:43:42 pm »

Alternatively, you could forego the doors to the walled-off wooded areas (and walls would be better; channels are nice but they're destructive to build and they can still be shot across whereas walls block both movement and enemy fire) entirely and tunnel over them to them underground.  A bit like

Code: [Select]
cccccccccccccccccccc
c     T    T      Tc
c T    TT    T     c
c   T      TT TT  Tc
c     T  TT   TTT  c
c>>  T  T  TT  T T c
c>> T  T  T    T   c
cccccccccccccccccccc

c= wall
T= tree
>= down staircase

Then you could have emergency tree groves wherever you wanted on the map - say, for example, walling off a couple densely forested areas then saving them in case of an extended siege.
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Actually, it'd be the most dangerous district in hundreds of thousands of worlds, starting with 'Xah Rabin' The Dimension of Omen. 

Qmarx

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2008, 10:59:51 pm »

For maximum efficiency, make all hallways into up/down staircases.  Have the lowest level of your fortress drain into a chasm.  That way, even if lava or water gets loose in your fortress, it'll be extremely unlikely to damage an extensive section. 

To increase room values (and happiness), consider taking out the walls, smoothing and engraving the floors, and installing masterwork statues for walls.
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CrazyEyes

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2008, 11:50:53 pm »

Interesting, but what would that do to room designations?
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I'm glad all the DF players are not living in one district. It'd be the most dangerous district for the whole world.
Actually, it'd be the most dangerous district in hundreds of thousands of worlds, starting with 'Xah Rabin' The Dimension of Omen. 

LegacyCWAL

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2008, 12:08:37 am »

Alternatively, you could forego the doors to the walled-off wooded areas (and walls would be better; channels are nice but they're destructive to build and they can still be shot across whereas walls block both movement and enemy fire) entirely and tunnel over them to them underground.  A bit like

Code: [Select]
cccccccccccccccccccc
c     T    T      Tc
c T    TT    T     c
c   T      TT TT  Tc
c     T  TT   TTT  c
c>>  T  T  TT  T T c
c>> T  T  T    T   c
cccccccccccccccccccc

c= wall
T= tree
>= down staircase

Then you could have emergency tree groves wherever you wanted on the map - say, for example, walling off a couple densely forested areas then saving them in case of an extended siege.
Well, "door" was meant to be a generic term for whatever way you use to get between the tree farm and the fort.  And walls can be broken down by some things, so the best way to make it really safe is just to use both ;)
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CrazyEyes

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2008, 12:21:51 am »

Ah, I see.  Overzealous passive defenses shall prevail! :D
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I'm glad all the DF players are not living in one district. It'd be the most dangerous district for the whole world.
Actually, it'd be the most dangerous district in hundreds of thousands of worlds, starting with 'Xah Rabin' The Dimension of Omen. 

sphr

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2008, 01:32:58 am »

I was contemplating on a farm of a different sort... Goblin farms....

Goblins are marvels to the resource-lacking fortress..
*their bone makes tons of stuff, esp ammo to use back against the next batch of goblins
*their iron stuff is great for melting if it is unusable by your dwarves.  They become plate armour, helm, greaves, gauntles, boots and shields to increase your odds against the next invasion wave.  If you don't have magma, better have lots of wood (even resort to tower cap growing if you have cave river)
*their unusable "narrow" clothings and armour makes great trading goods even for stupid elves (who only takes unbloodied cave spider stuff normally...).  Exchange them for enough cloth that you won't ever have to produce a single strand of thread yourself.  with human/dwarf traders, the goods become valuable resources that your resource-poor region have otherwise no way of acquiring.

thus, goblins is actually a valuable resource outside the norms.  Too bad we can't breed the bastards in captivity for meat or it will be a complete self-sufficient resource (or am I wrong???)

Zako

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2008, 02:11:07 am »

Unless they are born with armor, weapons and clothing on...

No, im afraid not.
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Hishan

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2008, 02:51:41 am »

Unless they are born with armor, weapons and clothing on...

No, im afraid not.

Where as you are right I do wonder if we could breed them, just out of interest.
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sphr

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2008, 03:21:38 am »

Unless they are born with armor, weapons and clothing on...

No, im afraid not.

Lol.. of course.  armour has to depend on invaders.  what I meant was : FOOD.  As long as they are born with meat, and can be butchered, well yeah... but too bad, not without modding.  Could probably generate some negative outlook if we are allowed to butcher another "intelligent" (figuratively.  I can't even say dwarves are intelligent at times... ) race like goblins.

But on some maps that I've played before, where there is extreme scarcity of resources, I look forward to invasions...  :)

Zwergner

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2008, 10:38:25 am »

I used to be obsessed with designs and stuff, but with my most recent fort I said !@#$ it...

As soon as I embarked (there were zombie animals around) I dug a column of up/down stairs all the way to the bottom of the map.  Then I mined out EVERYTHING (well, except the magma pipe of course) on the bottom level and I've built nearly everything down there.  Bedrooms are 3x3 with no walls between them, and I just have a row of workshops (at least 4 tiles away from any beds).

At another point in the base I dug from the bottom floor almost all the way up to get to some easily farmable soil (but I didn't breach the surface, so I only have the one entrance).

I put the barracks at the base of the entrance stair column and they beat the hell out of anything that comes down.  Armored Wrestling Shield Users if it matters ;p I have probably 8 champions now.  Population around 167 I think.  Two deaths, one was a really tough hunter that I liked and the other one was a retarded fisher who got injured during the winter and I hadn't built wells yet.

So my vote is for no walls at all ;p

Also, no one has fallen down the extremely long column of stairs.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2008, 03:01:23 pm »

I have my depot inside. There's an S-shaped outer area with ceilings and an S-shaped inner area so the entrance dance is not a problem.

My trade depot room has just one entrance in the form of a pair of double doors (that's four doors) leading to my trade goods stockpile. Toward the entrance, I build my food storage, then workshops, then farms under the dirt near the entrance. In the other direction, I have my dining room and then my communal bedroom. The dining room has a table and chair for every third dwarf. One defines the room as a meeting room. Another one is the leader's dining room.

My communal bedroom has every bed defining the room and assigned to a dwarf. It's far enough away from the workshops that they never hear any noise. The leader's bed is here.

Somewhere with good floor materials I stick the leader's office. Next to it I make a few other offices.

Everything is smoothed until the single engraver gets to legendary, then he engraves everything. Artifacts get stuck in whatever room isn't royal yet. First the dining room, then the communal bedroom, then the leader's office.

I generally have one of each profession to maximize skill gains, and the rest are haulers.

---

Another interesting option is one I've tried combining quantum stockpiling. You have a quantum stockpile with dump zone that holds every item in the game except artifacts. A separate stockpile in your treasury holds only artifacts. You also have a big booze stockpile and a big food stockpile.

You set objects you want to stockpile to dump instead. The dwarves leave everything in that stockpile, right next to your trade depot. Workshops get cluttered, because there is no stockpile space to create a hauling job, so you have to manually dump goods from them.

It's more work, but it completely solves the entrance dance for the burning sock (remember, there are no stockpiles to request the sock or however it works) and it saves so much stockpile space. Your loading and unloading of the trade depot is also as fast as physically possible.

Again, most of my dwarves end up as haulers.


---

A third cool option is the airlock fortress. This is primarily a way to prevent haulers from eating up all your food and to keep tantrums from kiling your valuable dwarves.

You have a trade depot inside. A set of floodgates outside and inside. Next to the trade depot is a big stockpile that holds everything.

Skilled dwarves come in and never leave. They never meet the outer dwarves. The outer dwarves can burn and die and the inner dwarves who matter will never care.

I haven't tested this long enough to tell you if cats will adopt dwarves from a distance, which could be problematic if the cats are all outside dying. But this system lets you bring in all the wealth from outside (trees, fish, berries, bones, leather) and trade without seeing the outside. Just have your broker outside talk with the traders, load them up with finished goods, and buy their junk. Get the dwarves out of the trade room. Then close the outer airlock, open the inner one, bring in all the raw materials, and replace them with new finished goods.

Say a seige comes. The outer dwarves, who are tough as nails from fighting and hard work, kill and die. They learn some fighting skills. They pick up armor and weapons and tools from the dead dwarves and keep on fighting. New immigrants come and fill the ranks.

Plus, you never have to worry about cave adaptation, because the dwarves who are inside are never outside. And seiges cannot enter your fort, if you put in channels in front of the floodgate airlock outside to keep them from touching it, and a retracting bridge to let the outside people into the trade room.
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MoQ

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Re: Super Efficient Fortress Designs, Useful Room Design Tips.
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2008, 03:21:31 pm »

I've found Necronopticous's Roarsilver design to be highly efficient thus far.

For those interested, I've made a macro that works off his wonderful design.
http://dwarf.lendemaindeveille.com/index.php/User:MoQ
Demo Movie: http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-795-roarcircledemo01
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