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[MaxTheFox]

In general I don't think socialism is necessarily communal ownership of the means of production. It can be the state, and that qualifies as social ownership. And that form of business ownership is the one I support because I distrust anarchism and its offshoots.

[EuchreJack]

And I distrust The State.

And The State doesn't even exist, so I don't know why you advocate for The State to own anything.

The State is just an aggregate of people, with uncertainty about who actually controls anything.

Take, for example, a Farm owned by The State.  Who determines what it grows? Who determines how those crops are distributed? Who determined whether those goods should be exchanged? Who determines what equipment to use? Who secures new equipment? Who rounds up people to work the Farm?

EDIT: Sadly, I can not be an impartial OP.  I actually own a business.  Socialism would take that away from me.  Thus Capitalism is GOOD and Socialism is BAD.
This, regrettably, is an impasse that will likely remain.  I wish it was in my power to give any self-proclaimed socialist a business, thus defeating them forever.

Your proposed economic system wishes to take FROM ME. Thus, I will NEVER agree to it.  The bullshit about "keeping small business" is a SCAM.

[Frumple]

I mean, there's reasons to distrust stuff calling itself the state (or at least trust cautiously), but one of the things even less trustworthy than a state is a corporation or business person, so...

The examples of a farm owned privately fairly often don't exactly have pretty answers to those questions, heh.

[EuchreJack]

Ultimately, I trust myself.  And I trust no one as much as I trust myself.
Thus, Capitalism is the only option.

EDIT: Enjoy the thread.  You're all nuts.  Stop trying to take my stuff (eh, you're not even listening, so whatever).

Final question: How are socialists NOT thieves/dictators?
Not that I care. Go start a business and learn something!

[EuchreJack]

Instead of bitching about esoteric theories, maybe people should say why they REALLY hate Capitalism or Socialism. I'll go first:

Why I Hate Socialism
By EuchreJack
I am writing this to explain why I have nothing but fiery hatred for Socialism.  Hopefully, by understanding my point of view, others will be able to understand how their point of view affects their perceptions on this issue.

The hatred arises out of the COVID Pandemic.  I owned a business that was shut down by the government due to the Pandemic.  Between the month of April and August 2020, I had expenses but little money to pay them.  I almost went out of business waiting for the government to tell me that I could work again. Note, it took several months to recover from that.  I was so depressed, I did not arrange for proper medical insurance (a downward modification due to the economic situation).  Also, I eventually had to move back home due to the financial situation.  There were several months where I had to share a vehicle.  So yeah, I’m bitter because I managed to drag myself up by my bootstraps, but the government nearly put me back into abject poverty.

If the government already has the power to kill a business that I worked 6 years to build up, then I must hate the idea that government has any say in business.
I barely survived the last caress of kindly government intervention. And it was truly under the kindest and most benevolent of reasons.

[Frumple]

Like... your business probably would have failed with or without government intervention. Plenty of businesses have even in areas where restrictions were functionally nonexistent, because we've been in a bloody plague and lots of folks don't actually need a mandate from on high to cut back on being out and about in the middle of a highly infectious pandemic.

Meanwhile, if you want covid based reasons to hate capitalism, well *gestures at profit motive and healthcare in the US alone*. There's tens to hundreds of thousands of people dead or crippled because capitalist horseshit kept them away from medical care or preventative measures (i.e. staying at home) through one means or another, and then more that are probably going to be buried in medical debt for decades, just as a sort of start to the cavalcade of horseshit.

...

Anyway, I don't actually hate capitalism per se, personally, there's just a lot of shit about it that needs to be hard shackled or it starts screwing everyone involved over. It has its uses under certain circumstances, it just needs to be kept well the hell away from everywhere it doesn't (i.e. anything vital, like infrastructure, agriculture, healthcare, education, basically anything involving monopoly of force, etc).

It's really as simple as that, one thing you can trust a successful capitalist to do is start fucking over everyone around them if you don't keep them watched, regulated, and cut down to size, so... do that. Keep the harm inherent to the system under control. Then it's mostly okay to let 'em stick around.

[Nirur Torir]

Our current economic system selects for people who will do anything for money. A caring boss who delays buying a productivity boosting widget by half a year to pay for an employee's cancer surgery, will fall behind those who would happily fire that employee and leave them to die.

That COVID situation was unfortunate. But the flipside of it is that every business competing with it was kept low too. Competitors couldn't get ahead by ignoring optional safety recommendations and pretending everything was normal, sacrificing workers' lives and public health for profit, while all the competing businesses willing to lose profits for worker safety lost too much market share and went bankrupt.

I am against state ownership of the economy. If nothing else, there's too much risk for a dictator to topple democracy and own everything.
We do need governmental business regulation to raise the low bar, however, or we end up in a race to the bottom by the biggest businesses, lead by people who will sacrifice anything and anyone to improve next quarter's profits.

[EuchreJack]

To clarify, my business recovered.

[MaxTheFox]

And I distrust The State.

And The State doesn't even exist, so I don't know why you advocate for The State to own anything.

The State is just an aggregate of people, with uncertainty about who actually controls anything.

Take, for example, a Farm owned by The State.  Who determines what it grows? Who determines how those crops are distributed? Who determined whether those goods should be exchanged? Who determines what equipment to use? Who secures new equipment? Who rounds up people to work the Farm?

EDIT: Sadly, I can not be an impartial OP.  I actually own a business.  Socialism would take that away from me.  Thus Capitalism is GOOD and Socialism is BAD.
This, regrettably, is an impasse that will likely remain.  I wish it was in my power to give any self-proclaimed socialist a business, thus defeating them forever.

Your proposed economic system wishes to take FROM ME. Thus, I will NEVER agree to it.  The bullshit about "keeping small business" is a SCAM.

The state exists as the people in power, to say it doesn't is bullshit and pedantic.

The bullshit about "keeping small business" is a SCAM.

How? Sure you'd never become a megacorp. But good riddance, megacorps are shit.

Ultimately, I trust myself.  And I trust no one as much as I trust myself.
Thus, Capitalism is the only option.

EDIT: Enjoy the thread.  You're all nuts.  Stop trying to take my stuff (eh, you're not even listening, so whatever).

Final question: How are socialists NOT thieves/dictators?
Not that I care. Go start a business and learn something!

If the government does it, that means it's not theft. It's confiscation. The world's smallest violin is playing a tearful symphony about megacorps possibly getting their shit "stolen".

[EuchreJack]

Please clarify "People in charge".

Also define "Megacorp".

I'm suspicious that the compromise of letting smaller businesses continue is a farce. I don't believe it to be genuine, and is instead a populist sellout.

Frankly, I think any government claims of supporting small business are lies.

[Frumple]

Frankly, I think any government claims of supporting small business are lies.

You'd have to have a wildly myopic outlook to think this. The carveouts and assistances for smaller businesses in most of the major developed countries are there for the looking, and it's almost always more substantial than what's available to the non-business individual. Generally less than what big business sees, sure (that's capitalism for you ), but the support's usually pretty substantial once you jump through the hoops to get to it, if you're actually running a legitimate business.

Incorporation in general, any of the business forms that limit fiscal or criminal liability, is a major one, just off the top of my head. Stateside there's a pile of help for smaller businesses, relatively sweet deal loans, tax breaks/writeoffs, and so on, if you can figure out how to ask for it in your region.

[EuchreJack]

Frankly, I think any government claims of supporting small business are lies.

You'd have to have a wildly myopic outlook to think this. The carveouts and assistances for smaller businesses in most of the major developed countries are there for the looking, and it's almost always more substantial than what's available to the non-business individual. Generally less than what big business sees, sure (that's capitalism for you ), but the support's usually pretty substantial once you jump through the hoops to get to it, if you're actually running a legitimate business.

Incorporation in general, any of the business forms that limit fiscal or criminal liability, is a major one, just off the top of my head. Stateside there's a pile of help for smaller businesses, relatively sweet deal loans, tax breaks/writeoffs, and so on, if you can figure out how to ask for it in your region.

I think I've illustrated my most scathing criticism.
Still sounds like hot air to me.
"words words, here be worthless words that mean nothing"

Loans: Here be more chains to enslave yourself!
Tax breaks: Ok good point, but only because the Individual Tax breaks have been so heavily gutted.
I haven't seen much on the much-floated "grants".  Lots of talk, but how many small businesses actually got the money?  How many did NOT?
Seriously, look up those statistics if you want me to bother listening to you further on this.

[Rolan7]

I fully sympathize with your argument, I'm doing okay.  Clearly I shouldn't care about about anyone else.

Oh wait other people matter? Oh no my community is mad that I'm the only person doing well, and the STATE isn't stopping them from stealing all my shit because it's underpaid.

I sympathize, I do.  I think it makes sense to be greedy under capitalism.  When it's socially acceptable.
Which shows how social norms control bitchness.  It's almost like a form of communism- but that would be bad, wahhhhh.

[MaxTheFox]

Please clarify "People in charge".

Also define "Megacorp".

I'm suspicious that the compromise of letting smaller businesses continue is a farce. I don't believe it to be genuine, and is instead a populist sellout.

Frankly, I think any government claims of supporting small business are lies.

1. People running the government and, potentially, planning the economy.
2. Any corporation above a certain net worth. I'd go for a billion dollars. Not any more. Sorry, no infinite growth allowed
3. Well if you want to call me a liar, go ahead, but those debates require people to argue in good faith to work as intended.

[Rolan7]

Today was Mayday, AKA the real Labor Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtfnQ69_i7g