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Author Topic: Trying to visualize z-levels...  (Read 3120 times)

gchristopher

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2012, 07:49:27 pm »

I assume every z-level is infinitely high, but every creature is infinitely tall. Lying down makes them infinity minus one in height, allowing an infinite number of lying down creatures to occupy a space two standing ones could not.

"Infinity mins one" is a meaningless concept. You should imagine larger and smaller infinities instead, it's much simpler.
Thank you!

Yeah, I'm also more comfortable thinking of objects occupying countably infinite numbers of units of space between the floor and ceiling, interleaved somehow with all the other objects also occupying the space, but that there are uncountably many units of spaces within the square to occupy, so it is effectively completely empty at all times regardless of the size of the quantum stockpile.
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Kibstable

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2012, 03:21:27 am »

You guys act as if you live in another world where space-time is the dimension in which matter exists. In the World of Dwarf fortress, tunnel-space-time warps to accommodate matter. Stop trying to think 'outside the box'

Even in your weird space-time world an infinite number of photons can occupy the same 5' cube space but only for the time it takes for them to pass through that 5' cube space. Remember that's in the make believe world where light speed is the constant.

UristAtoms,(if that's what the !!science!! boffins even call them) that make up dwarf fortress matter quite possibly have a wide range of variations in the forces that bind them together allowing them to compress, expand and overlap in order to fit inside the box, but the constant is that they DO all fit, inside the box

<nonsense mode off>
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2012, 03:29:25 am »

colossi are not liquid and hence compressible  8)
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smakemupagus

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2012, 03:49:26 am »

all these quantum mechanical explainations?
occam's razor would indicate that bronze collossuses simply do the limbo through your fort. 

Sus

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2012, 04:28:58 am »

all these quantum mechanical explainations?
occam's razor would indicate that bronze collossuses simply do the limbo through your fort.
...that still doesn't explain how infinity minus one bronze colossi doing the limbo while crouching fit in the same square with the one doing the limbo standing up. ???

> Sus has gone stark raving mad!
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Certainly you could argue that DF is a lot like The Sims, only... you know... with more vomit and decapitation.
If you launch a wooden mine cart towards the ocean at a sufficient speed, you can have your entire dwarf sail away in an ark.

hjd_uk

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2012, 05:57:42 am »

Each tile in the map is the intersection of all possible multiverses' parallel tiles, meaning that due to the fuzzy nature of the Armokverse, an infinite number of objects can reside and interact with each other in the same tile but simultaneously be in an inifnitle nuimber of separare parallel universes.
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Kidiri

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2012, 06:47:53 am »

I assume every z-level is infinitely high, but every creature is infinitely tall. Lying down makes them infinity minus one in height, allowing an infinite number of lying down creatures to occupy a space two standing ones could not.
This doesn't work. Infinite minus one is still infinite. What does work is if they are finitely wide and erm... "deep", but infinitely tall. When they lie down, an infinite amount of them can get crammed in one tile, since now they each occupy a certain height in an infinitely high distance. When a creature standing up enters the tile, the total height of the creatures in that tile equals n*d+inf=inf where n is the amount of prone creatures, d is the depth of a creature and inf is, obviously, infinity. Technically, you should also account for a portion of the prone creatures to be on their side, but since that just gives the same result, it can be ignored.
This gives a good result when describing the height problem issued, but when we take a loo at the wiki and raws, you'll find that the size of a creature is finite. If one measurement goes to infinity while the other two are real numbers, the volume of all creatures would be infinity: V=d*w*h=lim[h->inf](d*w*h)=d*w*lim[h->inf](h)=inf This is obviously not the case. Therefore, one of the other two measurements has to be a function of h tat goes to zero as h goes to infinity, in such a matter that lim[h->inf](d(h)*h)=c a real number. One such function is sin(1/h)*h or in a more recognizable form: sin(x)/x with h*x=1 This function, also called the sinc function, goes to 1 for x going to 0. There will probably be an infinite amount of functions that comply with this equation.
The fun really starts when you try to find the depth of your creatures. Since the product of d and h has to go to a finite number for h going to infinite, d has to go to 0: d*h=c <=>h=c/d <=> lim[h->inf](h)=lim[h->inf](c/d(h))<=>c/lim[d->0](d) <=> h->inf=>d->0 This implies that a creature has a real, non-zero width, an infinite height and a zero depth. What this means is that all creatures are planes with a certain width. If we assume that all creatures have the same function for d, then we know that the limiting factor of the creatures volume is it's width. If we were to assume that all creatures are infinitely flexible, this would mean that it would be able to fold itself in such a manner that it would occupy a finite volume, and thus tiles could have a finite volume as well. However, this explanation would only allow a finite number of finite creatures in a finite tile, which is against our basic assumption that an infinite amount of creatures fits in a single tile, whether it be finite or infinite.

Another explanation would be a quantum mechanical one. As known, quantum mechanics describes particles (dwarves) as waves, which can be represented in Euler's notation: D(r,t)=A*e(i*(r*k-w*t) With r=xex+yey+zez the location vector, k the wavenumber vector, w the angular frequency, t time and i=(-1)1/2 the imaginary unit. In general, something written in Euler's notation can be rewritten in function of a sine and a cosine: A*e(i(x+f))=A*cos(x+f)+i*A*sin(x+f) It is obvious that we can only perceive the real part, so what we observe of A*e(i(x+f)) is Re[A*e(i(x+f))]=Re[A*cos(x+f)+A*i*sin(x+f)]=A*cos(x+f) If we now assume that the wavefunction D(r,t) is related to the dwarf's volume, it is still so that we can only observe the real part of D. This is also the solution of a particle trapped in an infinitely deep potential well, which can be a good approximation of a dwarf in a tile. This leads to the conclusion that we know that the dwarf is in the tile, but not /where/ exactly in the tile. Introducing a second dwarf in the tile adds an element of perturbation to the potential energy function, on which the Schrödinger equation and hence the wavefunction relies. The exact solution depends on how the particles interact with each other, but it's possible that the wavefunction of a dwarf in a tile with n total dwarfs in it is augmented by two functions f and g of n so D(r,t)=A*f*cos(r*k-w*t)+A*g*sin(r*k-w*t) Seeing <D|D>=f²+g²=1, it is obvious that one should increase and the other should decrease with larger n. If we assume that f decreases with larger n, then what we observe is still the real part of D, but since it decreases with increasing n, the observed part of the wave function will be smaller when more dwarfs are in the same tile simultaneously. When n goes to infinity, the particles still interact with each other, but the observed part of the wavefunction will go to zero, allowing an infinite amount of dwarfs in a single tile.

colossi are not liquid and hence compressible  8)
A solid steel bar isn't a liquid and hence compressible? Technically true, you could compress it a bit, but not significantly. If your bronze colossus is a gas, I'd agree. But that would mean they'd have a temperature of about 2836K (assuming the current composition of 88% copper and 12% tin and a linear relation between the amount of each material and it's boiling point. 50% of each would result in a temperature of 2855K). This would ignite the surrounding grass. This is not the case, hence the bronze colossus is not a gas, and not compressible. The reason why a gas can be compressed is that in a gas, the atoms move freely with rather large spaces in between. In a liquid or a solid, they have almost no space in between them, making it harder to move them even closer.
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Captain Willy

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2012, 11:12:54 am »

Uhhhhh, you guys are going way into this, it is dwarf fortress. Stranger things have happened.
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Mr S

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2012, 01:25:28 pm »

Kidiri, thank you for that well thought out, and thoroughly detailed explaination.  I am glad to see some sense brought into this.

Also, I have now tapped out my reserve of deep intellectualism for the day, and will now be taking off the rest of the afternoon.  Again, my sincere thanks.
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ledgekindred

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2012, 02:39:51 pm »

I was going to say something to the effect of "I have an elegant proof but there is not enough room in this message box to write it" but Kidiri went and actually wrote it all out anyway...

So instead I'm just gonna go relax.
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I don't understand, though that is about right with anything DF related.
I just hope he dies the same death that all dwarfs deserve: liver disease.
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TeleDwarf

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Re: Trying to visualize z-levels...
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2012, 03:16:26 pm »

Let's consider dwarves to be 1.5 meters high (about 3/4 of a man)
Let's not consider things like dragons(because they will be fixed once multi-tile ccreatures are working correctly).
Let's not consider quantum stokpiles.

Now, what do we know about measures of DF?
1. Dwarf can easily reach to the neibouring tile to hit something or to interact (table and chair, well, etc.)
2. Dwarves are unable to go abreast in a tunel - one of them need to lie down while other walks.
3. One tile of stone is enough to build four block walls.

Given this I would say that one x an z tiles are about 1m, while 1 z level is about 1.75m (to actually allow floor).
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