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Author Topic: Research labs for some innovations  (Read 1238 times)

Azerty

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Research labs for some innovations
« on: December 30, 2015, 07:56:16 pm »

Besides reading books and discussing with other scholars, I think that, for some knowledge branchs, there need to be an experimental section, that is, tests.

  • Observatories: For Astronomy, or the observation of astronomical bodies by the Astronomer
  • Laboratories: For the study of experimental sciences and technical fields
    • Chemistry laboratory: For the Chemist and his Chemistry
    • Mechanical laboratory: For Engineering and the Optics and Fluid engineers
    • Cabinet of curiosities: For the study of Natural science on biological material - live and dead vermin and non-sentient creatures and parts of bodies
  • Anatomical theater: For dissecting corpses of creatures or parts of cadavers to advance Medical science

For Mathematics, Geography and Philosophy, a Desk and some books are needed - whereas the Mathematician need paper and a wastebasket, the Critical thinker need only the paper.
The Geographer's cabinet would also use other maps and atlases.
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DzeusPL

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Re: Research labs for some innovations
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2016, 12:41:20 pm »

This.

i think that we can even mod it in right now with custom worshops (you can make them, right?)
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Niddhoger

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Re: Research labs for some innovations
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 12:25:19 am »

I'd go for it, if only because scholars spend forever learning nothing.  I feel like I need to military-train my scholars to gain them teaching/student levels... and then hope a passing sage takes them as an apprentice and raises their levels to something non-terrible.  In 5 years I had all my scholars at bloody dabbling in most of their skills.  I rarely ever got scholar visitors though, and just about the only books in my library were wrote by those few that did come.  So maybe I'm just doing something wrong...
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cochramd

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Re: Research labs for some innovations
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2016, 12:43:06 am »

I'd go for it, if only because scholars spend forever learning nothing.  I feel like I need to military-train my scholars to gain them teaching/student levels... and then hope a passing sage takes them as an apprentice and raises their levels to something non-terrible.  In 5 years I had all my scholars at bloody dabbling in most of their skills.  I rarely ever got scholar visitors though, and just about the only books in my library were wrote by those few that did come.  So maybe I'm just doing something wrong...
Have you tried assigning your doctors and engineers as scholars?
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MobRules

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Re: Research labs for some innovations
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 08:36:06 am »

I rarely ever got scholar visitors though, and just about the only books in my library were wrote by those few that did come.  So maybe I'm just doing something wrong...

I get quite a few scholar visitors, from pretty early on. Maybe it's because I buy codexes (codecies?) and scrolls from caravans from the very beginning? So my library has books even before my scholars write them. (I buy them selectively, using v to read the description and buying the ones that seem worthwhile.)

I also weed my library -- I sell the books I don't like to caravans (originals and all), and keep the good ones.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Research labs for some innovations
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 10:22:43 am »

I see what you did.
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Tristan Alkai

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Re: Research labs for some innovations
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2016, 12:03:03 am »

From a different thread on certain library and scholar bugs:
I need a medical library! All my medical staff are discussing Geology and reading books about Surveying instead of the diagnosis and suturing books...

This illustrates a different function of labs: exerting control over which topics get researched at your fort, and possibly forcing certain types of research to occur. 

  • Observatories: For Astronomy, or the observation of astronomical bodies by the Astronomer
  • Laboratories: For the study of experimental sciences and technical fields
    • Chemistry laboratory: For the Chemist and his Chemistry
    • Mechanical laboratory: For Engineering and the Optics and Fluid engineers
    • Cabinet of curiosities: For the study of Natural science on biological material - live and dead vermin and non-sentient creatures and parts of bodies
  • Anatomical theater: For dissecting corpses of creatures or parts of cadavers to advance Medical science

My own comments on the lab types:

1. Observatory: Probably won't require much setup; telescopes would probably help, but require fairly advanced optics engineering to produce lenses or curved mirrors.  Almost certainly will need to be placed outside, with clear vertical access to the sky (I'm not sure if the game engine is sophisticated enough to allow glass roofs for this). 

2. Chemistry lab: Probably will require fairly substantial setup.  A lot of chemistry is best done, or even exclusively done, with glass apparatus, which can be quite difficult (or at least slow) to acquire in sufficient quantity if you don't have local sand. 

3. Engineering lab: Proper research will probably require a few mechanisms, ropes, and other supplies to remain in the lab. 
> Allowing the order to "make rock mechanisms" (from the current Mechanic's workshop) somewhere in the Engineering lab location interface could make the setup phase significantly simpler.  Otherwise, a functional Engineering lab will most likely require a Mechanic's workshop on the premises. 
> Most Optics research (anything requiring lenses) will probably require a glass furnace to be placed inside the lab.  Experiments will consume sand and fuel. 
> I'm not sure what supplies would be required for fluid engineering. 

4. Cabinet of Curiosities: The list of examples given left me unsure how this one is supposed to be distinct from "Dissection lab" (which you called "Anatomical Theater"). 
> Going over the wiki's Topics list suggests this to be something to the effect of "Biology lab" or "Zoology lab."  Not sure what supplies would be required, and getting animals to study might be somewhat problematic. 

5. Dissection lab: I would prefer to implement this as a permission at the Hospital (tying into this suggestion about moving the Hospital to the Locations list).  The full list of relevant permissions is probably off this topic. 
> A medical Dissection would consume an animal and train medical skills (at least Surgeon, Suturer, Wound dresser, and Bone doctor; not sure about Diagnostician).  May or may not provide the typical butchering products. 
> As such, dissections would require the normal Hospital furniture and supplies: Tables for surgery; and cloth, thread, soap, and maybe other things for their respective functions. 
> Medical dissection might be a consumer of rabbits, cavies, and other animals too small to reliably yield butchering products. 
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Azerty

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Re: Research labs for some innovations
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2016, 07:36:58 pm »

From a different thread on certain library and scholar bugs:
I need a medical library! All my medical staff are discussing Geology and reading books about Surveying instead of the diagnosis and suturing books...

This illustrates a different function of labs: exerting control over which topics get researched at your fort, and possibly forcing certain types of research to occur.

And it could make a place specialize, or at least having a major, in fields - see points below.

  • Observatories: For Astronomy, or the observation of astronomical bodies by the Astronomer
  • Laboratories: For the study of experimental sciences and technical fields
    • Chemistry laboratory: For the Chemist and his Chemistry
    • Mechanical laboratory: For Engineering and the Optics and Fluid engineers
    • Cabinet of curiosities: For the study of Natural science on biological material - live and dead vermin and non-sentient creatures and parts of bodies
  • Anatomical theater: For dissecting corpses of creatures or parts of cadavers to advance Medical science

My own comments on the lab types:

1. Observatory: Probably won't require much setup; telescopes would probably help, but require fairly advanced optics engineering to produce lenses or curved mirrors.  Almost certainly will need to be placed outside, with clear vertical access to the sky (I'm not sure if the game engine is sophisticated enough to allow glass roofs for this). 

2. Chemistry lab: Probably will require fairly substantial setup.  A lot of chemistry is best done, or even exclusively done, with glass apparatus, which can be quite difficult (or at least slow) to acquire in sufficient quantity if you don't have local sand. 

3. Engineering lab: Proper research will probably require a few mechanisms, ropes, and other supplies to remain in the lab. 
> Allowing the order to "make rock mechanisms" (from the current Mechanic's workshop) somewhere in the Engineering lab location interface could make the setup phase significantly simpler.  Otherwise, a functional Engineering lab will most likely require a Mechanic's workshop on the premises. 
> Most Optics research (anything requiring lenses) will probably require a glass furnace to be placed inside the lab.  Experiments will consume sand and fuel. 
> I'm not sure what supplies would be required for fluid engineering. 

4. Cabinet of Curiosities: The list of examples given left me unsure how this one is supposed to be distinct from "Dissection lab" (which you called "Anatomical Theater"). 
> Going over the wiki's Topics list suggests this to be something to the effect of "Biology lab" or "Zoology lab."  Not sure what supplies would be required, and getting animals to study might be somewhat problematic. 

5. Dissection lab: I would prefer to implement this as a permission at the Hospital (tying into this suggestion about moving the Hospital to the Locations list).  The full list of relevant permissions is probably off this topic. 
> A medical Dissection would consume an animal and train medical skills (at least Surgeon, Suturer, Wound dresser, and Bone doctor; not sure about Diagnostician).  May or may not provide the typical butchering products. 
> As such, dissections would require the normal Hospital furniture and supplies: Tables for surgery; and cloth, thread, soap, and maybe other things for their respective functions. 
> Medical dissection might be a consumer of rabbits, cavies, and other animals too small to reliably yield butchering products.

The fact most of these laboratories requite a substantial setup in terms of material could simulate research tended to concentrate in well-off places.

The Cabinet of Curiosities could also serves to study plants and rocks; live small creatures and vermin could be used for experiments, and bones, skins and other biological remains should be used for studying nature.

For the dissections, there is no need of soap, threads and so forth, since this is not surgery but opening the corpse of a creature to look up inside.
I feel the corpses of sentient beings should also be able to be used for dissection, and that it should be more rewarding in terms of skills and knowledge obtained; skeletons, and even bones, should be used to train up Bone doctors.
I even found yet another industry: use POWs for target training and then, once they die, let your interns study their bodies.
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