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[Rose]

Also posting to watch, just because I keep forgetting to check this thread.

[Dakorma]

PTW because of a nice gift I've gotten in relation with this thread.

What?

I think he got given Starbound.

[ECrownofFire]

Guys, they are changing compilers because MINGW's C compiler is getting weird and scary in places, as well as being less optimized for Windows in general. They've also likely been on the compiler they used at the start of development, which was 2 years ago IIRC. It's pretty necessary, and honestly not that big of a deal.

So... why don't they just update to a newer version of MinGW? There's one for every release of GCC, usually within a week or two.

Switching compilers can be a big deal, depending on what they're using. Like if they're using C++11 features (and I think I spied a few in a Bartwe stream), MSVC lacks a LOT of them, but GCC 4.8.1 is fully C++11 compliant (libstdc++ is only missing built-in regex support, IIRC).

[miljan]

I must say i didn't expect that beta is taking them this long, as I got wrong impression that it would be released a month ago

[ECrownofFire]

That's par for the course as far as software development goes. Doesn't matter who it's made by, what kind of software, or how "100% sure" you are that the deadline is enough time.

[Dakorma]

Guys, they are changing compilers because MINGW's C compiler is getting weird and scary in places, as well as being less optimized for Windows in general. They've also likely been on the compiler they used at the start of development, which was 2 years ago IIRC. It's pretty necessary, and honestly not that big of a deal.

So... why don't they just update to a newer version of MinGW? There's one for every release of GCC, usually within a week or two.

Switching compilers can be a big deal, depending on what they're using. Like if they're using C++11 features (and I think I spied a few in a Bartwe stream), MSVC lacks a LOT of them, but GCC 4.8.1 is fully C++11 compliant (libstdc++ is only missing built-in regex support, IIRC).

Because MinGW can't do native x64 compilation in x64 Windows. That's the weird and scary part. To compile in x64, you need to, write the code in windows, hop into Linux, download a conversion library, compile it in linux, and then precede to transfer said compiled file into windows, and hoping it works.

Here's the proof, http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1850/ http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1849/ http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1899/ http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1719/

It's weird and scary, but that's often what you have to do. It's likely, that like many other games they'll have to maintain a seperate code base for at least their C code between Linux/Mac and PC.

[ECrownofFire]

Guys, they are changing compilers because MINGW's C compiler is getting weird and scary in places, as well as being less optimized for Windows in general. They've also likely been on the compiler they used at the start of development, which was 2 years ago IIRC. It's pretty necessary, and honestly not that big of a deal.

So... why don't they just update to a newer version of MinGW? There's one for every release of GCC, usually within a week or two.

Switching compilers can be a big deal, depending on what they're using. Like if they're using C++11 features (and I think I spied a few in a Bartwe stream), MSVC lacks a LOT of them, but GCC 4.8.1 is fully C++11 compliant (libstdc++ is only missing built-in regex support, IIRC).

Because MinGW can't do native x64 compilation in x64 Windows. That's the weird and scary part. To compile in x64, you need to, write the code in windows, hop into Linux, download a conversion library, compile it in linux, and then precede to transfer said compiled file into windows, and hoping it works.

Here's the proof, http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1850/ http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1849/ http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1899/ http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1719/

It's weird and scary, but that's often what you have to do. It's likely, that like many other games they'll have to maintain a seperate code base for at least their C code between Linux/Mac and PC.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/mingw-w64/ and http://sourceforge.net/projects/mingwbuilds/

Problem has already been solved.

Also, Starbound probably doesn't really need to be 64-bit...

[Sean Mirrsen]

A nigh-infinite amount of huge procedurally generated worlds, with cooperative and competitive multiplayer of uncertain player count?

I think they can well use the extra RAM.

[Rose]

Actually, MSVC 2012 has a decent amount of C++11 support, though still not complete.

[Dakorma]

Guys, they are changing compilers because MINGW's C compiler is getting weird and scary in places, as well as being less optimized for Windows in general. They've also likely been on the compiler they used at the start of development, which was 2 years ago IIRC. It's pretty necessary, and honestly not that big of a deal.

So... why don't they just update to a newer version of MinGW? There's one for every release of GCC, usually within a week or two.

Switching compilers can be a big deal, depending on what they're using. Like if they're using C++11 features (and I think I spied a few in a Bartwe stream), MSVC lacks a LOT of them, but GCC 4.8.1 is fully C++11 compliant (libstdc++ is only missing built-in regex support, IIRC).

Because MinGW can't do native x64 compilation in x64 Windows. That's the weird and scary part. To compile in x64, you need to, write the code in windows, hop into Linux, download a conversion library, compile it in linux, and then precede to transfer said compiled file into windows, and hoping it works.

Here's the proof, http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1850/ http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1849/ http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1899/ http://sourceforge.net/p/mingw/bugs/1719/

It's weird and scary, but that's often what you have to do. It's likely, that like many other games they'll have to maintain a seperate code base for at least their C code between Linux/Mac and PC.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/mingw-w64/ and http://sourceforge.net/projects/mingwbuilds/

Problem has already been solved.

Also, Starbound probably doesn't really need to be 64-bit...

You don't see why a procedurally generated game, focusing on expansive worlds, multiple worlds which may or may not be active, and with a competitive and cooperative multiplayer gameplay focus, needs more ram you say?

Well gee willikers this argument is done then.

Also most people want to stick with known elements, as much as MinGW w64 is probably  good compiler, most coders will stick with base MinGW, Cygwyn, or MSVC for windows, because they are known elements with large support structures.

[Chattox]

I'd just like the point out that Elite was procedurally generated for the express purpose of using less ram.

[0x517A5D]

I'd just like the point out that Elite was procedurally generated for the express purpose of using less ram.

Elite could discard and recreate game areas at will.  And there was at most one area (star system) in play at a time.

Starbound, on the other hand, needs to keep track of deltas to its game areas.

Let's talk about Terraria for a minute.

Consider a hypothetical Terraria map made of 'chunks' that are generated on the fly.  Over the course of a game, many of these chunks will need to be altered.  Plants grow and die, water and lava flood downward, the Corruption and Hallowed spread, new ores are placed, certain mobs place blocks... and then there are all of the player-caused changes.

These changes need to persist.  So they would need to be recorded and attached to each chunk somehow.

In addition, the natural effects I mentioned happen map-wide in ways that cannot be predicted prior to generation of each and every map chunk.

On-the-fly, as-needed generation can't work for Terraria's maps.  I predict that it won't work for Starbound's maps either.

Edit:

we asked for and did get a month-early release for Terraria (and look how that turned out!).

Wasn't it released early because of a leaked beta that was being extensively pirated?  That's what I recall anyway.

[Darkmere]

On-the-fly, as-needed generation can't work for Terraria's maps.  I predict that it won't work for Starbound's maps either.

That's how Starbound's maps work. The world generates from the coordinate seed, with changes to worlds and X,Y coordinates saved as a B-tree that gets applied after the world is generated from the seed. It's a mix of the stable terraria map and randomly generated (just with consistent seeds) worlds.

[Frumple]

... source? My memory doesn't remember that being explicitly stated

[hemmingjay]

More than that, your assumptions on hemmingjay's words are rather impressive. Ranging from assuming they have multiple codebases(Something that a large variety of games do/did have.) To those code bases being utterly unable to work together.

What they are doing in programming terms is object oriented design in it's purest form. As far as I can tell, they have all the feature sets there, they just are trying to make them interact. Depending on their setup and the tools they have, this ranges from mildly tedious, to "Oh I'm done."

Essentially they have the code for the GUI set up, and the code for the crafting set up, so that neither requires the other to run, which is excellent use of object oriented programming. Now what they need to do is have the code interact with each other, so the GUI can display crafting, crafting can plug stuff into the gui, etc. Given their previous progress and fast implementation, this game should be out before thanksgiving at the latest.

As far as I understand things you are very much correct, in particular with the things I have highlighted. For giggles I also highlighted the Thanksgiving note, but I strongly expect it before September is out and in case of disaster by Halloween. To my understanding, the shell-shock moment is over and they are progressing at (Lightspeed-Lazyness) speed. I have remained faithfully optimistic and continue to see this as likely being the only viable contender to displace DF in my life.